為什么韓國歷史上一直是弱國?
Why has Korea historically been a weak state?譯文簡介
QA關(guān)于為什么韓國一直是弱國的討論...
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Korea has not always been a historically weak state. In fact, Korea used to be an incredibly powerful state.
During King Gwanggaeto the Great (391–413 AD), the Korean kingdom of Goguryeo was arguably the most powerful kingdom in Northeast Asia. At that time, China fell into division of multiple kingdoms, with northern China constantly getting raped by the five Hu tribes. King Gwanggaeto defeated the xianbei (who were the most powerful nomads of northern China at that time) state of Later Yan, and repulsed Japanese pirate invasions from the south.
Fast forward two to three hundred years later. Goguryeo managed to repel multiple invasions from Sui Yangdi, and then later Tang Taizong. Only during Tang Gaozong’s reign did Goguryeo finally fell to Tang. In other words, it took one entire Chinese dynasty (Sui), plus one of the greatest conqueror in Chinese history (Tang Taizong), plus numerous attempts from Gaozong, plus another Korean ally Silla, before the Chinese were finally able to defeat Goguryeo. This is not a weak kingdom by any means; I think there is enough evidence to suggest that Korea (specifically Goguryeo) was the most powerful country in Northeast Asia for several periods of time within the first thousand years after Jesus.
Then, when we jump ahead to the Mongol invasions, it took the Mongols 6 (six!) invasions and close to thirty years of war before Korea finally surrendered (and even then, Korea wasn’t entirely absorbed into Yuan… more like a quasi-state). The only other country that gave the Mongols this much grief was China, and considering that Korea is much smaller than China, I think Korea overall did a better job of fighting off the Mongols than the Chinese did.
歷史上,韓國并非一直都是弱國。事實上,韓國曾經(jīng)是一個非常強大的國家。
在廣開土大王(公元 391-413 年)時期,高句麗可以說是東北亞最強大的國家。當時,中國陷入了多國分裂,中國北方不斷遭到五個胡人部落的蹂躪。廣開土大王擊敗了鮮卑(當時中國北方最強大的游牧民族)后燕國,并擊退了來自南方的日本海盜入侵。
兩三百年后,高句麗成功擊退了隋煬帝和后來的唐太宗的多次入侵。直到唐高宗統(tǒng)治期間,高句麗才最終被唐朝滅亡。換句話說,經(jīng)過整個中國王朝(隋朝),加上中國歷史上最偉大的征服者之一(唐太宗),加上唐高宗的多次嘗試,再加上另一個朝鮮盟友新羅,中國人才最終擊敗了高句麗。這絕不是一個弱小的王國;我認為有足夠的證據(jù)表明,在公元后的頭一千年里,朝鮮(特別是高句麗)曾是東北亞最強大的國家。
然后,當我們跳到蒙古入侵時,蒙古人經(jīng)過了六次(六次?。┤肭趾徒甑膽?zhàn)爭,朝鮮才最終投降(即便如此,朝鮮也沒有完全被元朝吸收....更像是一個準國家)。唯一一個給蒙古人帶來如此大痛苦的國家是中國,考慮到朝鮮比中國小得多,我認為朝鮮在抵抗蒙古人方面總體上比中國做得更好。
This is why Ming, in contrast to Han and Tang (two previous Han Chinese empires), was not very expansionist. It would take the Manchus, a warlike tribe in the northeast, to conquer China before China became expansionist again. But guess what happened after the Manchus conquered China and expanded the Chinese territory? They accepted the Confucian culture, and as a result, lost their warrior culture, which was partly responsible for its decline and falling victim to Western and Japanese invasions.
So I think what happened in the past few hundred years that made Korea seemed weaker than its other two neighbors is the culture of valuing scholars over all other professions.
我認為直到朝鮮王朝(1392 年及以后)開始,韓國才開始衰落。我對此后的韓國歷史了解不多,但我知道朝鮮王朝開始信奉儒家思想,摒棄了傳統(tǒng)的軍事文化(中國也發(fā)生了同樣的事情)。例如,除了李舜臣,朝鮮人在 1592 年日本入侵期間的戰(zhàn)爭中表現(xiàn)糟糕。我讀過歷史書,書中說,當時的韓國認為由武士統(tǒng)治的日本是一個野蠻的國家。韓國以自己是一個文明國家而自豪,因為它是由貴族和學者統(tǒng)治的,就像明朝中國一樣。如果你看看同樣受儒家思想統(tǒng)治的明朝,你會發(fā)現(xiàn)它與韓國非常相似(摒棄軍事,擁抱學者)。
這就是為什么明朝與漢朝和唐朝(之前的兩個漢人帝國)相比,擴張主義并不強的原因。直到滿族(東北的一個好戰(zhàn)部落)征服了中國,中國才再次擴張。但你猜滿族征服中國并擴張中國領(lǐng)土后發(fā)生了什么?他們接受了儒家文化,結(jié)果失去了他們的武士文化,這在一定程度上導致了韓國的衰落和成為西方和日本入侵的犧牲品。
所以我認為,過去幾百年來,韓國之所以看起來比其他兩個鄰國弱,是因為韓國重視學者勝過其他所有職業(yè)。
Historically, Korea was never weak. They just saw no reason to fight due to there being no major threat. I know what you’re thinking: China, Manchuria, and Japan. Well, let me explain.
China: Korea always maintained close ties with China, and sent tribute, rarely attacking China. As a result, China saw no interest in conquering Korea and instead maintained relatively friendly relations.
Manchuria: The Manchurians were for most of their history, nomadic tribes. Other than occasional raids along the border, they posed no major threat to Korea. The only time they were a big threat was when they formed into the Qing, but they adopted a Chinese approach and instead turned Korea into a vassal.
Japan: Japan posed no threat to Korea up until the 16th century. Japan for the most part even sent envoys to Korea and learned from them, so Korea never thought of them as a threat.
So, it wasn’t necessarily weak, there was no big need to be militarily strong. However, Korea was very powerful.
從歷史上看,朝鮮從來就不弱。他們只是覺得沒有理由打仗,因為沒有重大威脅。我知道你在想什么:中國、滿洲地區(qū)和日本。好吧,讓我解釋一下。
中國:朝鮮一直與中國保持密切聯(lián)系,并向中國進貢,很少攻擊中國。因此,中國對征服朝鮮不感興趣,而是保持了相對友好的關(guān)系。
滿洲:滿族在其大部分歷史中都是游牧部落。除了偶爾沿邊境襲擊外,他們對朝鮮沒有構(gòu)成重大威脅。他們唯一一次構(gòu)成重大威脅是在他們成立清朝的時候,但他們采用了和中國同樣的做法,反而把朝鮮變成了附庸國。
日本:直到 16 世紀,日本對朝鮮都沒有構(gòu)成威脅。日本大部分時間甚至派遣使者前往朝鮮并向他們學習,所以朝鮮從未認為他們是威脅。
所以,它不一定弱,是沒有必要在軍事上強大。然而,朝鮮非常強大。
The Joseon Dynasty, however, was not about fighting, and instead was about peace. However, they weren’t weak and destroyed the Japanese navy during the Imjin War with the famed Turtle Ship and the famous Crane Wing formation.
I think most assume Korea was weak due to its relation with China, but let me say, no! Korea maintained close relations with China to avoid conflict. Many Korean states could’ve withstood Chinese occupation. I mean, an entire dynasty (Sui) fell because of its losses against the Goguryeo. So in short, it was never weak, just had no major reason to fight.
高句麗至少三次擊敗隋朝,新羅擊敗唐朝,將他們趕出朝鮮半島。高麗也非常軍國主義,在戰(zhàn)爭中擊敗北方部落,九次擊敗蒙古人!
然而,朝鮮王朝不熱愛戰(zhàn)爭,而是鐘愛和平。然而,他們并不軟弱,在壬辰倭亂期間,他們用著名的龜船和鶴翼陣摧毀了日本海軍。
我認為大多數(shù)人認為朝鮮弱是因為它與中國的關(guān)系,但我要說,不是!朝鮮與中國保持著密切的關(guān)系,以避免沖突。許多朝鮮國家可以承受中國的占領(lǐng)。我的意思是,整個王朝(隋朝)都是因為輸給高句麗而滅亡的。簡而言之,它從來都不弱,只是沒有重大的戰(zhàn)斗理由。
They haven’t historically always been weak. The last century or so has hurt their reputation a lot, which tends to happen when you’ve been invaded three times in less than a century (China, Japan, then North vs. South). Nowadays, the southern Korea is actually pretty steady economically and socially. They have a lot of things going for them, namely their close trade and military ties with the US, among other things.
North Korea is a dying state, and I actually don’t doubt that its only a matter of time before something changes. You could say things are already starting to change, but I’d say we are still a decade or so away from them actually collapsing.
Now, Korea started out like many nations fractured into several kingdoms. China, specifically the Han Dynasty, took control in about 108 BC, but eventually all but one of the four rulers they installed there fled their posts. Eventually the Koreans actually pushed them out by the Medi times. For about a millennia, the Koreans were in flux. They had a great empire that reached its zenith about the 5th century, and a smaller but strong and civil kingship that was overseen by the Chinese by about 900. After that the Koreans were constantly invaded by the Mongols as the Chinese fell, though they were never successfully conquered. Eventually, they were tired of the fighting and simply pledged allegiance to Kublai Khan. This lasted almost half a millennia before they were free of their influence. Once they were free, they came under China’s influence again as a tributary state, but experienced a lot of peace and prosperity that made them an economic powerhouse.
從歷史上看,他們并不總是軟弱的。在過去的一個世紀左右,他們的聲譽受到了很大損害,這種情況往往發(fā)生在不到一個世紀內(nèi)被入侵三次(中國、日本,然后是南北戰(zhàn)爭)的情況下。如今,韓國的經(jīng)濟和社會實際上相當穩(wěn)定。他們有很多事情要做,例如與美國的密切貿(mào)易和軍事聯(lián)系等。
北朝鮮是一個垂死的國家,我實際上并不懷疑它的巨變只是時間問題。你可以說事情已經(jīng)開始改變,但我想我們距離他們真正崩潰還有十年左右的時間。
現(xiàn)在,朝鮮就像許多分裂成幾個王國的國家一樣。中國,特別是漢朝,在公元前 108 年左右取得了朝鮮半島的統(tǒng)治權(quán),但最終他們在那里安置的四個郡的統(tǒng)治者中除了一個之外都逃離了他們的職位。最終,朝鮮人在中世紀將他們趕了出去。大約一千年來,朝鮮人一直處于動蕩之中。他們擁有一個偉大的帝國,大約在 5 世紀達到頂峰,還有一個規(guī)模較小但強大而文官統(tǒng)治的王國,大約在900年由中國人統(tǒng)治。此后,隨著中國滅亡,朝鮮人不斷遭到蒙古人的入侵,盡管他們從未被成功征服。最終,他們厭倦了戰(zhàn)斗,只是向忽必烈宣誓效忠。這種情況持續(xù)了近半個世紀,他們才擺脫了中國的影響。獲得自由后,他們再次受到中國的影響,成為朝貢國,但經(jīng)歷了許多和平與繁榮,使他們成為經(jīng)濟強國。
The Japanese invaded in the 1500s. While the ground army of Korea struggled, their navy was far better prepared than they were. The Japanese had a habit of using their superior marines to board Korean vessels, or any enemies, and taking them down that way. Koreans didn’t do that. They used cannon and excellent sharpshooters to destroy their enemy from afar. Thanks to the leadership of Yi Sun-sin, the Korean Navy destroyed the Japanese one, and ended up halting their invasion almost outright. This pretty much starved and damaged morale of the Japanese on the peninsula, and thanks to Chinese help, they eventually won the day.
Now from here on out is pretty much where Korea became a lot weaker. They were invaded successfully by the Manchu people, then came under the influence of the Chinese again for another 2 centuries. The dynasty of the time eventually collapsed due to corruption and riots, and for a while were in dire straits. They eventually fell under imperialist influence and were modernized to some extent during their stint of the Great Korean Empire (1897–1910). It was eventually invaded by the Japanese, who ruled them to the end of WWII, and was then divided into the two Koreas we know today by the US and Russia.
現(xiàn)在我可以肯定地說,朝鮮人很強大。他們經(jīng)濟穩(wěn)定,盡管沒有為軍隊提供應有的資金,但他們實際上開創(chuàng)了一些第一批“重型”戰(zhàn)艦——龜船。本質(zhì)上,這種船是一個裝甲箱,配有重型大炮和優(yōu)秀的船員,當時在東部海域幾乎勢不可擋。
日本人在 16 世紀入侵。當朝鮮地面部隊苦苦掙扎時,他們的海軍準備得比他們陸軍好得多。日本人習慣于使用他們優(yōu)秀的海軍陸戰(zhàn)隊登上朝鮮船只或任何敵人的船,并以此方式擊落他們。朝鮮人沒有這樣做。他們使用大炮和優(yōu)秀的神槍手從遠處摧毀敵人。由于李舜臣的領(lǐng)導,朝鮮海軍摧毀了日本的船只,并最終幾乎完全停止了他們的入侵。這幾乎使半島上的日本人士氣低落,多虧了中國人的幫助,他們最終贏得了勝利。
從那以后,古代朝鮮幾乎變得弱了很多。他們被滿族人成功入侵,然后又受到中國的影響,持續(xù)了兩個世紀。當時的王朝最終因腐敗和暴亂而崩潰,一度陷入困境。他們最終受到帝國主義的影響,并在大韓帝國時期(1897-1910)在一定程度上實現(xiàn)了現(xiàn)代化。它最終被日本人入侵,日本人統(tǒng)治他們直到二戰(zhàn)結(jié)束,然后被美國和俄羅斯分成我們今天所知道的兩個朝鮮。
But the gist of it should be that Korea has militarily been relatively weak compared to other nations simply because they never had time or the culture to build up an impressive army. Their position on the peninsula between Japan and China means their land was a valuable asset to have militarily, and as such were invaded constantly for several millennia. That isn’t to say they have always been weak, but they haven’t always been strong either.
Anyways, hope that helps!
這是我從我擁有的各種歷史書籍和維基百科中得到的關(guān)于他們歷史的簡要回顧,所以如果它看起來很短、缺少信息或有誤,我深表歉意。
但要點應該是,與其他國家相比,韓國的軍事實力相對較弱,僅僅是因為他們沒有時間或文化來建立一支令人印象深刻的軍隊。他們在日本和中國之間的半島上的位置意味著他們的土地是軍事上的寶貴資產(chǎn),因此幾千年來不斷遭到入侵。這并不是說他們一直很弱,但他們也并非一直很強大。
無論如何,希望這能有所幫助!
原創(chuàng)翻譯:龍騰網(wǎng) http://nxnpts.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
I do not think so. Historically, Korea was not so weak state. Anyway, she has been maintained her sovereignty over two thousand years. Even, many historians uate that keeping her independence could be one of the miracles considering her disadvantageous location just between China and Japan. As you know, historically China empires had been maintaining too much strong existence to cope with for the middle-sized kingdoms.
Consequently, so many ancient kingdoms could not resist their destiny to be a part of China civilization. Anyway, Korea is survived among various historical changes during over two millennia. Moreover, Korea sometimes very flourished by their cultural aspects into neighboring regions. Now, South Korea's economic amount would be included as the top 10 countries in the world. That is not a small size considering its separation and a small population compared to other Asian countries. Korea history should be uated properly not only by her survival but also by her prosperity.
我不這么認為。從歷史上看,韓國并不是一個如此弱小的國家。無論如何,它已經(jīng)維持了兩千年的主權(quán)。甚至,許多歷史學家評價說,考慮到它位于中國和日本之間的不利位置,保持獨立可能是奇跡之一。如你所知,歷史上中國帝國一直保持著強大的存在,中等大小的王國無法應對。因此,許多古代王國無法抗拒成為中國文明一部分的命運。無論如何,在兩千多年的各種歷史變遷中,韓國幸存了下來。此外,韓國有時通過其文化方面在中國鄰近地區(qū)實現(xiàn)繁榮?,F(xiàn)在,韓國的經(jīng)濟總量將列為世界前十名國家。考慮到與其他亞洲國家相比,韓國的土地和人口較少,但實際上這個規(guī)模并不小。韓國的歷史應該不僅根據(jù)它的生存來評價,也應該根據(jù)它的繁榮來評價。
Historically Korea has acted as a buffer state between larger states, be it China and Russia, China and Japan, China and Russia and more recently, China and the US. Being a small country next to such monolithic states, it has been influencing by the great power dynamics around it. Only recently, with its rapid industrialization, South Korea has become one of the largest economies in the world. During pre-industrial times, it was simply impossible for a state of that size to be a powerful state, when it was surrounded by much larger states, with much more resources. Even today, South Korea is dependent on the US, just like North Korea is dependent on China for its own security. Divided and at conflict with each other, Korea is unable to recognize its full potential and surrounded by larger powers, it seems like Korea will continue to defined by the relations of the states that hold influence in the region. Thus, Korea continues to struggle with its geographic reality, unable to fully take control of its own fate.
從歷史上看,韓國一直充當著大國之間的緩沖國,無論是中國和俄羅斯、中國和日本、中國和俄羅斯,還是最近的中國和美國。作為一個與這些大國相鄰的小國,韓國一直受到周圍大國動態(tài)的影響。直到最近,隨著工業(yè)化的快速發(fā)展,韓國才成為世界上最大的經(jīng)濟體之一。在工業(yè)化前時期,當周圍都是大得多、資源多得多的國家時,像韓國這樣規(guī)模的國家根本不可能成為強國。即使在今天,韓國也依賴美國,就像朝鮮依賴中國來保障自己的安全一樣。由于分裂和相互沖突,韓國無法充分發(fā)揮自己的潛力,而且被大國包圍,韓國似乎將繼續(xù)受到在該地區(qū)有影響力的國家關(guān)系的影響。因此,韓國繼續(xù)與其地理現(xiàn)實作斗爭,無法完全掌握自己的命運。
Some people seem to think that 高句麗 is considered a Korean regime, but Goguryeo is not actually a Korean regime. If 高句麗 is considered a Korean regime, then any regime in China's Han Dynasty, Yan, and Tang Dynasty that expanded its territory to the Korean Peninsula is considered a Korean regime.
高句麗 is a prefecture of the Han Dynasty managed by the Fuyu people and the Han people. The name 高句麗 was taken by the Han people. The people living in 高句麗 County are mainly Han Chinese. After the rebellion in 高句麗 County, it became the 高句麗 Kingdom.However, the 高句麗 Kingdom was only in the northeast of China at that time, and it was soon suppressed by the Han Dynasty, and the King of 高句麗 was eliminated from the title of king and became the Marquis of 下句麗 .
有些人似乎認為高句麗算是朝鮮的一個政權(quán),但高句麗其實并不是朝鮮的一個政權(quán)。如果把高句麗算作朝鮮的一個政權(quán),那么中國漢朝、燕朝、唐朝時期凡是將領(lǐng)土拓展到朝鮮半島的政權(quán)都算是朝鮮的一個政權(quán)。
高句麗是漢朝的一個郡縣,由扶余人和漢人共同管理。高句麗這個名字是漢人取的,高句麗縣居住的人主要是漢人。高句麗縣發(fā)生叛亂后,變?yōu)楦呔潲悋?。不過當時高句麗國只在中國的東北地區(qū),很快就被漢朝鎮(zhèn)壓了,高句麗國王也被取消了國王的稱號,成為下句麗侯。
After the demise of the Han Dynasty, 高句麗 reappeared. Its scope was only in the northeast of China, but it was often conquered by China and various regimes. Even the local regimes on the Korean peninsula also invaded 高句麗. For example, in 342 AD, China’s Former Yan invaded 高句麗. , Former Yan captured more than 50,000 households of 高句麗 people, then burned the 高句麗 Palace with fire, and razed 高句麗's 丸都城 to the ground.
Over time, it continued to expand, be invaded, and conquered. By 576 AD, only a small part of 高句麗 's territory was in the Korean Peninsula, and the rest of the territory was in Northeast China.
In 666 AD, the Tang Dynasty of China wiped out 高句麗 and took control of part of the Korean peninsula. The only native regime on the Korean peninsula that exists is Silla. Silla is the origin of what is now Korean.
漢朝滅亡后,高句麗重新出現(xiàn),其范圍只限于中國東北地區(qū),但時常被中國和各個政權(quán)所征服,甚至朝鮮半島的地方政權(quán)也入侵高句麗,例如公元342年,中國的前燕入侵高句麗,前燕俘虜了高句麗人五萬余戶,隨后用火焚燒高句麗宮殿,把高句麗的丸都城夷為平地。
隨著時間的推移,它不斷擴張、被入侵、被征服。到了公元576年,高句麗的領(lǐng)土只有一小部分在朝鮮半島,其余的領(lǐng)土都在中國東北地區(qū)。
公元666年,中國唐朝滅掉高句麗,控制了朝鮮半島的部分地區(qū)。朝鮮半島現(xiàn)存的唯一本土政權(quán)是新羅。新羅是現(xiàn)在的韓國的起源。
Hundreds of years later, some descendants of 高句麗 established the 高麗 Dynasty on the Korean peninsula. The 高麗 Dynasty was a vassal state of China. Only a few nobles in the 高麗 Dynasty were descendants of 高句麗, and most of the rest of the nobles and common people were descendants of Silla.
In 1392, the 高麗 Dynasty was eliminated by Yi Seonggye, a general of the former 高麗 Dynasty, and the Joseon Dynasty was established, which also denied 高句麗 as a Korean regime.
幾百年后,高句麗的部分后裔在朝鮮半島建立了高麗王朝。高麗王朝是中國的藩屬國,高麗王朝中只有少數(shù)貴族是高句麗的后裔,其余貴族和平民大多是新羅的后裔。
1392年,高麗王朝被前高麗王朝將領(lǐng)李成桂滅亡,朝鮮王朝建立,也否定了高句麗是朝鮮政權(quán)。
1897年,朝鮮王朝滅亡,朝鮮半島被日本控制。受西方“民族獨立”思想的影響,為使朝鮮人擺脫日本的控制,朝鮮民族主義者從朝鮮半島逃到中國。他們躲在中國,重構(gòu)朝鮮人的民族歷史,試圖讓其他朝鮮人愿意加入到抗日活動中。這種修正主義影響了朝鮮人與其他國家相處的方式?,F(xiàn)在韓國人極力宣稱領(lǐng)土到達朝鮮半島的政權(quán)就是“韓國政權(quán)”,同時韓國人還否認其他國家對領(lǐng)土到達朝鮮半島的政權(quán)擁有主權(quán),即使這些政權(quán)源于其他國家,而且大部分領(lǐng)土都在其他國家,而不是朝鮮半島。
Kingdom of 渤海.
高句麗 Kingdom.
受害者:
渤海國。
只有極小部分領(lǐng)土位于朝鮮半島。
高句麗國。
發(fā)源于中國東北,由扶余族和漢族控制,只吞并了朝鮮半島上中國漢朝的郡縣。后被唐朝滅亡,其擁有的領(lǐng)土和人民全部被唐朝接管。
Korea was a vassal of China from 1392-1894 because the general who was ordered to command the Korean army decided that it would be more profitable for him to be a ruler under the rule of China than to fight against China and possibly die.
And to keep his dynasty 500 years allowed the system that still operates in Choson - North Korea. In the west they do not know but Joseon is the official name of this state. And Kim Il Sung did not come up with anything new.
Even the Imjin war that is now mythologized in Korea was not a war between Korea and Japan, but between China and Japan. Korea has not played any significant role. And all the fairy tales about Yyben are just Korean fairy tales. To hide the fact of 40 thousandth Chinese contingent of the first wave, and 60 thousand army on the approach.
But for the dynasty it had a benefit. The dynasty retained Joseon under its authority, having no real power for this, except for a vassal position towards China. So in Korean politics it's normal, to use someone who considers himself a suzerain for his own purposes.
Until then, however, there was a period of strong silla-koguryeo people of the state. The new Goguryeo 1039-1254 was a really strong and prosperous Empire. But mentally those people were quite different from modern Koreans, like Koryo Saram, they therefore called themselves Koryo to show that they are mentally, not chosons.
1392 年至 1894 年,朝鮮一直是中國的藩屬,因為受命指揮朝鮮軍隊的將軍認為,與其與中國開戰(zhàn)并可能喪命,不如在中國的統(tǒng)治下當統(tǒng)治者,這樣對他來說更有利。
為了維持他的王朝 500 年,朝鮮一直實行這種制度。西方人不知道,朝鮮是這個國家的正式名稱。金日成也沒有提出任何新的想法。
即使是現(xiàn)在在朝鮮被神話化的壬辰倭亂也不是朝鮮和日本之間的戰(zhàn)爭,而是中國和日本之間的戰(zhàn)爭。朝鮮沒有發(fā)揮任何重要作用。所有關(guān)于擊敗日本的童話都只是韓國的童話。韓國人隱藏了第一波中國部隊的 40000 人以及即將到來 60000 人的軍隊的事實。
但對中央王朝來說,這是有好處的。王朝將朝鮮置于其權(quán)威之下,除了對中國的附庸地位外,沒有對其行事真正的權(quán)力。所以在韓國政治中,利用一個自認為是宗主的國家來達到自己的目的是很正常的。
然而,在那之前,有一段時期,新羅-高句麗人統(tǒng)治著這個國家。1039-1254 年的新高句麗是一個真正強大和繁榮的帝國。但在思想上,高麗薩拉姆(俄羅斯遠東地區(qū)朝鮮族人)那些人與等現(xiàn)代韓國人截然不同,因此他們稱自己為高麗人,以表明他們在思想上是高麗人,而不是朝鮮人。
Korean terrain is difficult and mountainous. Its latitude also makes the climate very harsh. Easy to defend if you’re already there… not so easy to invade.
I suspect the supply lines are very hard to replenish.
Same reasons for Vietnam’s much vaunted strength in repulsing the Chinese.
朝鮮地形復雜,多山。其所處緯度也使其氣候非常惡劣。如果你已經(jīng)在那里,會很容易防守....但入侵就不那么容易了。
我懷疑補給線很難補給。
這也是越南在擊退中國人時大肆吹噓自己實力的原因。
If we(China, Japan, Vietnam, Korea and Taiwan) make devices to prevent ourselves from ignoring inferior groups’ dignity, East Asia can provide a vast amount of good influence to the world. Because we basically love peace.
如果我們(中國、日本、越南、韓國和臺灣(地區(qū)))采取措施防止自己忽視劣勢群體的尊嚴,東亞就可以為世界帶來巨大的良好影響。因為我們本質(zhì)上熱愛和平。
Thanks for the very informative and interesting answer. However, I don’t totally agree with you on 2 details (of course feel free to correct me if I’m wrong).
Confucianism didn’t necessarily weaken military capability.
Confucianism was strongly embraced in many periods in China such as the Han dynasty, which had a very expansionist behavior.
So maybe it was something else (or some combination other factors) that made Joseon became less focused on militarism.
About the Mogol Empire’s conquests:
While I have much admiration and respect for Korean states of old, there was one country better than both China and Korea in terms of repelling the Mongols. This is Vietnam (Dai Viet at the time), who turned the 3 invasions of the Mongol Empire (and later the Yuan dynasty) into disasters & never surrendered.
感謝您提供的信息豐富且有趣的答案。但是,我不完全同意您的兩個細節(jié)(當然,如果我錯了,請隨時糾正我)。
儒家思想并不一定會削弱軍事能力。
儒家思想在中國的許多時期都受到強烈推崇,例如漢朝,當時漢朝的行為非常具有擴張性。
所以也許是其他原因(或其他因素的組合)讓朝鮮不再那么注重軍國主義。
關(guān)于蒙古帝國的征服:
雖然我非常欽佩和尊重古代的朝鮮國家,但有一個國家在擊退蒙古人方面比中國和朝鮮都做得更好。這就是越南(當時的大越),它將蒙古帝國(以及后來的元朝)的三次入侵變成了災難,并且從未投降。
原創(chuàng)翻譯:龍騰網(wǎng) http://nxnpts.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Is it accurate to describe Goguryeo a “Korean” culture?
將高句麗描述為“韓國”的文化準確嗎?
原創(chuàng)翻譯:龍騰網(wǎng) http://nxnpts.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
The modern Koreans are descendants of the three countries in the Korean Peninsula on this map. The Goguryeo is the enemy of the Korean. Interesting!
這張地圖上的現(xiàn)代韓國人是朝鮮半島三國的后裔。高句麗是朝鮮人的敵人。有趣!
Yes, it is. Korea has ethnical, cultural, historical inheritance of Goguryeo.
But after the early2000s Some Chinese began to claim that Goguryeo was part of china.
是的。韓國繼承了高句麗的民族、文化和歷史。
但21世紀初以后,一些中國人開始聲稱高句麗是中國的一部分。
原創(chuàng)翻譯:龍騰網(wǎng) http://nxnpts.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處
Please note that the Chinese never claimed that Goguryeo was part of China, which is inaccurate. Usually, we think of it as a regime established by a frontier minority, a civilization that developed independently, much like the Manchu regime that later ruled China. It is only because the Tang Dynasty was more powerful and Goguryeo failed that these histories were incorporated into Chinese history.
Since modern Korea succeeded directly from Silla, which apparently never ruled Goguryeo nor was it ever ruled in its entirety by Goguryeo, we treat the two as two states. In fact, much of Goguryeo's historical heritage has been lost to history, and we only know that their ruling class used Chinese characters, the same as Silla, Baekje, and Japan, and that Goguryeo's dress and manners, political system, and military system were modeled on those of the Tang Dynasty but had their own national characteristics, which were somewhat different from those of Silla and Tang during the same period, and closer to those of Baekje and Japan. Genetically speaking, its survivors were integrated into China, Korea and Japan at the same time, so you can hardly define modern Korea as having a direct succession with it.
請注意,中國人從未聲稱高句麗是中國的一部分,這是不準確的。通常,我們認為它是一個由邊疆少數(shù)民族建立的政權(quán),是一個獨立發(fā)展起來的文明,很像后來統(tǒng)治中國的滿族政權(quán)。只是因為唐朝更強大,高句麗失敗了,這些歷史才被納入中國歷史。
由于現(xiàn)代朝鮮直接繼承了新羅,而新羅顯然從未統(tǒng)治過高句麗,也沒有被高句麗完全統(tǒng)治過,所以我們把這兩個國家當作兩個國家。事實上,高句麗的大部分歷史遺產(chǎn)已經(jīng)失傳,我們只知道他們的統(tǒng)治階級使用漢字,與新羅、百濟和日本一樣,高句麗的服飾和禮儀、政治制度和軍事制度都是仿照唐朝的,但有自己的民族特色,與同一時期的新羅和唐朝有些不同,更接近百濟和日本。從基因上來說,它的幸存者同時融入了中國、朝鮮和日本,因此很難將現(xiàn)代朝鮮定義為與它直接繼承。
You said
“Since modern Korea succeeded directly from Silla,”
No intention to offend you, but that is only how Chinese want to view Korean history. The reality is different.
Actually, Korea succeeded both Silla and Goguryeo, Beakje. A lot of Goguryeo revival forces and its citizens voluntarily moved to silla, not tang.
Goryeo was founded by Goguryeo lineage and accepted numerous Balhae people.
We have the culture, blood and identity of goguryeo.
So it is true that Korea was also directly inherited by Goguryeo, just like Beakje and Silla.
你說“因為現(xiàn)代朝鮮是直接繼承自新羅的”,
無意冒犯你,但這只是中國人想要看待朝鮮歷史的方式?,F(xiàn)實是不一樣的。
其實朝鮮繼承了新羅和高句麗、百濟。很多高句麗復興力量和其國民自愿移居新羅,而不是唐朝。
高麗是由高句麗血統(tǒng)建立的,并接納了眾多的渤海人。
我們有高句麗的文化、血統(tǒng)和身份。
所以朝鮮也是直接繼承自高句麗,就像百濟和新羅一樣。
Most of the citizens of Goguryeo moved to China, and no citizens of Goguryeo voluntarily moved to Silla.
Korea also did not directly inherit Goguryeo, and the Joseon Dynasty believed that Goguryeo had no relationship with them.
Judging from modern genetic tests, the ethnic group closest to the Goguryeo people is the Chinese.
Goguryeo may have some relationship with Japan in terms of language.
高句麗大部分國民都移居中國,沒有一個高句麗國民自愿移居新羅。
韓國也沒有直接繼承高句麗,朝鮮王朝認為高句麗與他們沒有關(guān)系。
從現(xiàn)代基因檢測來看,與高句麗人最接近的民族是中國人。
高句麗在語言方面可能與日本有一些關(guān)系。
that’s like taking the Koreans that now live in present day Russia/Kazakstan that migrated there due to wars and shit… genetically testing them and stating that they are the closest ethnic group to the Koreans living in North or South Korea…
you realize that many of those people residing in now present day China (but used to be Goguryeo) either moved? hence why there can be a discrepancy for calling them Chinese?
這就像把現(xiàn)在生活在俄羅斯/哈薩克斯坦的朝鮮人當作移民,他們因為戰(zhàn)爭等原因而移民到那里....對他們進行基因測試,并聲稱他們是與生活在朝鮮或韓國的朝鮮人最接近的民族...
你知道嗎,現(xiàn)在生活在中國的許多民族(以前高句麗人)都已經(jīng)遷走了?那么為什么稱他們?yōu)橹袊藭蟹制缒兀?/b>
I would agree that Confucian culture likely played a major role in limiting Joseon’s military preparedness. But, overall I would say it goes beyond just the military. Confucian culture was applied in such a strict manner that also made adaptability and proper governance difficult. Previous Korean dynasties had kings that would be more actively engaged with their people and in times of war, lead armies. By the time of King Seonjo and the Imjin War (Japanese invasion of Joseon), the king would have no actual military experience to conduct a war properly and no confidence in their decision making ability to make appropriate judgments (This is why Yi Soon Shin was tortured when he should have been honored for saving the kingdom). Joseon also failed to modernize in the late 1800s which allowed a second Japanese encroachment which ultimately led to the annexation of Korea in 1910.
我同意儒家文化可能在限制朝鮮的軍事準備方面發(fā)揮了重要作用。但總的來說,我認為這不僅僅局限于軍事。儒家文化被嚴格地應用,這也使得適應性和適當?shù)闹卫碜兊美щy。以前的朝鮮王朝的國王會更積極地與人民打交道,在戰(zhàn)爭時期,他們會帶領(lǐng)軍隊。到了宣祖和壬辰戰(zhàn)爭(日本入侵朝鮮)時期,國王沒有實際的軍事經(jīng)驗來正確指揮戰(zhàn)爭,也沒有信心做出適當?shù)呐袛啵ㄟ@就是為什么李舜臣本應因拯救王國而受到尊敬,卻遭到折磨)。朝鮮在 19 世紀后期也未能實現(xiàn)現(xiàn)代化,導致日本第二次入侵,最終導致朝鮮在 1910 年被吞并。
Koguryo was destroyed by the Tang Dynasty. In order to prevent Koguryo from growing again, the Tang Dynasty moved Koguryo to other places.
Are you sure you are a descendant of Koguryo? Your ancestors should be xinluo and Baiji. Koguryo is the enemy of Silla. Are you sure you want to worship your ancestors' enemies now?
Don't kneel down in front of the enemy and shout their ancestors because Koguryo is strong.
高句麗是被唐朝滅亡的,為了防止高句麗再次發(fā)展壯大,唐朝把高句麗人遷移到了其他地方。
你確定你是高句麗的后代嗎?你的祖先應該是新羅和百濟。高句麗是新羅的敵人,你確定現(xiàn)在要祭拜你祖先的敵人嗎?
不要因為高句麗強大,就跪在敵人面前高呼他們是祖先。
The absurdity of South Koreans' enthusiasm for describing Goguryeo as their ancestors is as ridiculous as Charlemagne's ancestor of the Germans. You can't make an ancestor of a country that is not born in present-day South Korea, where most of the country is not in South Korea, and whose scxt is completely different from that of South Korea.
The only relationship between your ancestors and Goguryeo is that Goguryeo would periodically go south to plunder you as slaves and export them to the Central Plains Dynasty, and the "Silla Handmaiden" was a very sought-after servant commodity since the Han Dynasty.
韓國人熱衷于把高句麗人說成是自己的祖先,其荒謬程度就如同查理曼大帝把德國人當成祖先一樣可笑。你不可能造出一個不誕生在現(xiàn)今韓國的國家的祖先,這個國家的大部分領(lǐng)土都不在韓國,文字也和韓國完全不同。
你的祖先和高句麗唯一的關(guān)系,就是高句麗會定期南下掠奪你們當奴隸,輸出到中原王朝,而“新羅婢女”自漢代以來就是非常搶手的奴仆商品。
認賊作父,regard the enemy as kith and kin. Funny because the modern Koreans are descendants of the three countries in the Korean Peninsula on this map !!! The Tang Chinese defeated the Goguryeo, and help the Silla establish their country which is the predecessor of Korea. And hundreds of thousands of Goguryeo people were relocated to the China Central Plains region.
認賊作父,視敵人為親朋好友。可笑的是,現(xiàn)代的韓國人正是這幅地圖上朝鮮半島三國的后裔!!! 唐朝打敗了高句麗,幫助新羅建立了他們的國家,也就是朝鮮的前身。而數(shù)十萬高句麗人被遷移到中國中原地區(qū)。
Chen Zhigong (陳治功)
高句麗不是朝鮮古代的一個國家,新羅才是。
If Goguryeo was not a Korean state, then neither is Baekjae. Baekjae was founded by the descendants of Goguryeo.
如果高句麗不是韓國的一個國家,那么百濟也不是。百濟是由高句麗的后裔建立的。
*Correction… Balhae was.
However the argument regarding whether Goguryeo or Balhae was Chinese or Korean is undeniable in its classification. And that is Korean. This is due to the simple fact that genetically and linguistically, Goguryeo could be classified as a Proto-Korean state. Moreover, the historiography of Goguryeo was claimed by Koreans more than a thousand years before irredentist nationalist Chinese began their propaganda movements to claim Goguryeo as Han Chinese (Northeast Project).
*更正… 是渤海國。
然而,關(guān)于高句麗或渤海國是古代中國還是朝鮮歷史的一部分的爭論在其分類上是無可否認的。那就是朝鮮。這是因為一個簡單的事實,即從遺傳和語言上講,高句麗可以歸類為原始朝鮮國家。此外,早在民族統(tǒng)一主義的中國開始宣傳運動聲稱高句麗人是漢族(東北計劃)之前一千多年,韓國人就聲稱擁有高句麗的史學。
If Goguryeo is considered a Korean state, then by the same logic, Joseon should be considered a Chinese regime. After all, Gija Joseon(箕子朝鮮) was founded by the remnants of the Shang Dynasty, and Wiman Joseon(衛(wèi)滿朝鮮), the original regime on the Korean Peninsula with a credible historical record, was founded by Yan(燕國) generals during the Han Dynasty.
As we all know, modern Korea inherited from Silla, which never ruled over Goguryeo, and Goguryeo never had complete control over Silla, and the relationship between the two was close to that of xiongnu and the Han Dynasty, the invader and the invaded. If Silla had not turned to the Tang Dynasty and been destroyed by Goguryeo, and if Goguryeo culture had continued to this day, we could certainly be sure that Goguryeo was the Joseon regime, but it clearly was not. Just as if the Manchus had not successfully ruled China and Korea and still exist today, you would easily understand that China, the Manchus, and Korea are different countries.
如果把高句麗看作是朝鮮的一個國家,那么按照同樣的邏輯,朝鮮應該算作一個中國政權(quán),畢竟箕子朝鮮是商朝殘余勢力建立的,而朝鮮半島上最早有史料記載的政權(quán)衛(wèi)滿朝鮮是漢朝的燕國將軍建立的。
與日本文化極為相似的高句麗文化,會不會也是日本文化的一部分呢?
眾所周知,現(xiàn)代朝鮮繼承自新羅,而新羅從未統(tǒng)治過高句麗,高句麗也從未完全控制過新羅,兩者的關(guān)系類似于匈奴與漢朝,侵略者與被侵略者。如果新羅沒有投奔唐朝并被高句麗所滅亡,高句麗文化一直延續(xù)至今,我們當然可以肯定高句麗是朝鮮政權(quán),但顯然不是。就如同滿族沒有成功統(tǒng)治中國和朝鮮并且至今還存在一樣,你會很容易地理解,中國、滿清和朝鮮是不同的國家。
In terms of writing, the written language of the ruling class in Goguryeo uses Chinese characters, which is consistent with Baekje, Silla and Japan, while the spoken language is unverifiable due to a serious lack of evidence for it. Culturally, Goguryeo inherited many of the characteristics of the Chinese dynasty, as it originated from Goguryeo County in Xuantu County(玄菟郡高句麗縣) during the Han Dynasty. Genetically speaking, after Goguryeo was destroyed, its remnants flowed to China, Korea and Japan at the same time, and I do not understand why only Korea is regarded as the successor of Goguryeo. Just because its name is pronounced close to Goryeo?
Why can't we face up to the fact that this was a civilization that developed independently? There are even Korean scholars who claim that the Njinjin(女真) and the Koreans are of the same origin, so the Manchu were also a Korean regime, what do you think about this?
從文字上看,高句麗統(tǒng)治階層的書面語采用漢字,與百濟、新羅、日本等國一致,而口語則因嚴重缺乏證據(jù)而無法考證。從文化上看,高句麗繼承了中國王朝的很多特征,源于漢代玄菟郡高句麗縣。從遺傳上看,高句麗滅亡后,其殘余同時流向中國、朝鮮和日本,我不明白為什么只把朝鮮視為高句麗的繼承者。就因為它的名字讀音接近高麗?
為什么我們不能正視這是一個獨立發(fā)展起來的文明?甚至有韓國學者聲稱,女真和朝鮮人是同源的,滿清也是朝鮮的一個政權(quán),您對此怎么看?