QA:為什么人們總是談?wù)摴帕_馬的道路?它們真的那么了不起嗎?古代中國和印度難道沒有同樣驚人的道路嗎?
Why do people always talk about the ancient Roman roads? Are they really that great? Did ancient China and India not have equally amazing roads?譯文簡(jiǎn)介
網(wǎng)友:中國和印度有它們自己的工程壯舉,但這里有一段公元前312年開始建造的亞壁古道至今仍在使用......
正文翻譯
John Cate
China and India have their own feats of engineering, but here’s a part of the Appian Way, which was built starting in 312 BC, that is still in use today:
中國和印度有它們自己的工程壯舉,但這里有一段公元前312年開始建造的亞壁古道至今仍在使用:
China and India have their own feats of engineering, but here’s a part of the Appian Way, which was built starting in 312 BC, that is still in use today:
中國和印度有它們自己的工程壯舉,但這里有一段公元前312年開始建造的亞壁古道至今仍在使用:
I’m sure it’s been well-maintained over the last 2,300 or so years, but it speaks for itself. How many modern-day roadways do you think will still be in use in the year 4319?
我相信它在過去大約2,300年里得到了很好的維護(hù),但它本身就很顯而易見。你認(rèn)為現(xiàn)代道路中有多少條能在4319年仍然在使用?
There are some things the Romans were great at, and others they weren’t so good at it. Anything that had to with engineering, they were outstanding, and this is why you still can see so many Roman structures standing today. Some, like parts of the Appian Way and even a few of their aqueducts, are still in use today. Someone on Quora once asked why they didn’t emulate the Chinese and build a “Great Wall of Rome,” but they even did that. It was called Hadrian’s Wall:
羅馬人在某些方面非常擅長(zhǎng),而在其他方面則不太擅長(zhǎng)。任何涉及工程的事物,他們都表現(xiàn)出色,這也是為什么今天你仍然可以看到許多羅馬建筑仍然屹立的原因。其中一些像亞庇古道的部分甚至他們的一些引水渠,至今仍在使用。在Quora上有人曾經(jīng)問為什么他們不效仿中國修建一個(gè)“羅馬長(zhǎng)城”,但他們甚至也做到了。那就是哈德良長(zhǎng)城。
羅馬人在某些方面非常擅長(zhǎng),而在其他方面則不太擅長(zhǎng)。任何涉及工程的事物,他們都表現(xiàn)出色,這也是為什么今天你仍然可以看到許多羅馬建筑仍然屹立的原因。其中一些像亞庇古道的部分甚至他們的一些引水渠,至今仍在使用。在Quora上有人曾經(jīng)問為什么他們不效仿中國修建一個(gè)“羅馬長(zhǎng)城”,但他們甚至也做到了。那就是哈德良長(zhǎng)城。
John Cate's answer to Why didn't the Romans build a great wall of Rome?
So, the main reason people talk about ancient Roman roads is that they were indeed that good. I’m sure there are ancient engineering marvels in India and China; in fact, I know of some of them, but Quora is an English-language site with a Western perspective, and as such, Roman history is going to be better known and more culturally congruent with its readers. If you were in Delhi or Chongqing, or on a website based there, I’m sure you would hear a very different historical perspective.
John Cate對(duì)于為什么羅馬人沒有建造一條偉大的羅馬長(zhǎng)城的回答:
因此,人們談?wù)摴帕_馬道路的主要原因是它們確實(shí)非常出色。我確信在印度和中國也有古代的工程奇跡;事實(shí)上,我知道其中一些,但Quora是一個(gè)以英語為主的網(wǎng)站,帶有西方視角,因此羅馬歷史更為人所熟知,并且在文化上更為符合其讀者。如果你在德里或重慶,或者在那里的網(wǎng)站上,我敢肯定你會(huì)聽到一個(gè)非常不同的歷史觀點(diǎn)。
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Well, I’m sure many roads were built in Europe before the Appian Way, but the Roman state only formed in 509 BC.
India had human civilization before Europe did, so it would make sense that they have older roads.
嗯,我確信在亞庇古道之前歐洲建造了許多道路,但羅馬國家是在公元前509年成立的。印度在歐洲之前就有人類文明,所以他們擁有更古老的道路是有道理的。
the appain way was built around 313 bc the first roamn road while the Chinese built their first around 1200 bc. By the time the romans built their first the Chinese had already built 20,000 kilometres of roadways. They were 5 carriageways wide while the roman was one carriageway. They were designated carriageways for their various peoples to travel on eg workers, farmers were only allowed to travel on the 2 outer 1 and 5 , merchants/traders 2 and 4 etc
亞庇古道建于公元前313年,是羅馬建造的第一條道路,而中國則在公元前約1200年建造了他們的第一條道路。到羅馬建造亞庇古道時(shí),中國已經(jīng)建造了長(zhǎng)達(dá)20,000公里的道路。這些道路寬達(dá)5車道,而羅馬道路只有1車道。它們?yōu)椴煌娜巳涸O(shè)立了專用車道,例如工人、農(nóng)民只能使用外側(cè)的第1和第5車道,而商人和交易者使用第2和第4車道等。
However there is a catch - the Roman Roads people talk about so much are many times standing in the same way the Romans left them.
This cannot be said about Ancient Indian roads.
然而,有一個(gè)問題——人們?nèi)绱硕啻握務(wù)摰牧_馬道路,往往仍然保持著羅馬人當(dāng)時(shí)留下的樣子。而古代印度的道路則不能這樣說了。
Do you have any factual data about the road existing currently or as usual it is a jhoomla
你是否有任何關(guān)于這條道路目前存在的事實(shí)數(shù)據(jù),或者它通常是一個(gè)陷阱
Mauryan empire under Chandragupta Maurya built the first Grand Trunk road from Pataliputra (present day Patna, Bihar) to Taxila in present day Pakistan, a distance of 1600 Km. This was part of a network of roads built by him covering his kingdom. Grand Trunk road is still in use & now is part of NH44 of India.
Kallanai dam (meaning stone dam in Tamil) across the river Cauvery in Tamilnadu, India, was constructed around 100 BC and is still in use today for irrigation.
孔雀王朝在旃陀羅笈多的統(tǒng)治下,從現(xiàn)今的印度比哈爾邦的巴特那(古名帕塔利普特拉)修建了第一條大交通干線道路,延伸至今天的巴基斯坦塔克西拉,全長(zhǎng)1600公里。這是他在王國內(nèi)修建的道路網(wǎng)絡(luò)的一部分。大交通干線道路至今仍在使用,現(xiàn)已成為印度NH44公路的一部分。
Kallanai大壩(在泰米爾語中意為石壩)跨越印度泰米爾納德邦的高韋里河,建于公元前約100年,至今仍在用于灌溉。
What! Did not know that!!
“but Quora is an English-language site with a Western perspective, and as such, Roman history is going to be better known and more culturally congruent with its readers. If you were in Delhi or Chongqing, or on a website based there, I’m sure you would hear a very different historical perspective.”
“什么!我不知道這一點(diǎn)!
“但Quora是一個(gè)以西方視角為主的英語網(wǎng)站,因此羅馬歷史在這里更為人所知,并且與讀者的文化更為相稱。如果你在德里、重慶或者基于那些地方的網(wǎng)站上,我相信你會(huì)聽到非常不同的歷史視角?!?/b>
I am from India and ancient Indians have indeed made many astonishing structures ( specially temples ) but Rome's roads were in league of it's own, followed by the Persians.
我來自印度,古印度確實(shí)建造了許多令人驚嘆的結(jié)構(gòu)(尤其是寺廟),但羅馬的道路在其獨(dú)特的領(lǐng)域中獨(dú)樹一幟,緊隨其后的是波斯。
Civil engineering isn’t the sphere of whole engineering, just a small segment of it.
土木工程并不是整個(gè)工程領(lǐng)域的范疇,只是其中的一個(gè)小部分。
but it’s a very impactful one in people’s lives, much more useful than most of IT engineering of today
但這個(gè)大壩對(duì)人們的生活影響非常深遠(yuǎn),比今天大多數(shù)IT工程都要有用多了
Well the so called Adam's bridge between indian and Sri Lanka was built more than 5000 years ago.
印度和斯里蘭卡之間所謂的亞當(dāng)橋建于5000多年前。
Ancient Roman roads are often talked about for several reasons:
Engineering and Construction: Roman roads were known for their advanced engineering and durable construction. They were typically built in straight lines with a slight incline for drainage, and they used various materials such as gravel, sand, and stone. The Romans also developed techniques like the use of a foundation of stones and concrete to ensure durability. The quality of construction allowed these roads to withstand the test of time and many are still visible today.
古羅馬道路經(jīng)常因幾個(gè)原因而被人們談?wù)摚?br /> 工程與建設(shè):古羅馬道路以其先進(jìn)的工程技術(shù)和耐久的建筑而聞名。它們通常直線修建,稍微傾斜以利于排水,并采用多種材料如礫石、沙子和石頭。羅馬人還開發(fā)了諸如使用石頭和混凝土基礎(chǔ)等技術(shù),以確保耐久性。優(yōu)良的建筑質(zhì)量使得這些道路經(jīng)受住了時(shí)間的考驗(yàn),許多道路今天仍然可見。
網(wǎng)絡(luò)與范圍:古羅馬道路網(wǎng)絡(luò)廣泛,連接了羅馬帝國遼遠(yuǎn)的地區(qū)。這些道路便利了人員、貨物和軍隊(duì)的移動(dòng),對(duì)于帝國的維護(hù)和擴(kuò)展至關(guān)重要。在其鼎盛時(shí)期,這一網(wǎng)絡(luò)覆蓋了超過25萬英里,延伸至不列顛、北非和中東地區(qū)。
歷史意義:古羅馬道路在塑造歐洲及其它地區(qū)的歷史中發(fā)揮了重要作用。它們促進(jìn)了貿(mào)易、交流和羅馬文化及影響力的傳播。這一網(wǎng)絡(luò)還增強(qiáng)了羅馬軍隊(duì)跨越帝國快速調(diào)動(dòng)軍隊(duì)和補(bǔ)給的能力。
Ancient China: The ancient Chinese also built extensive road networks, such as the famous Silk Road, which connected China with Central Asia, the Middle East, and Europe. These routes facilitated trade and cultural exchange over vast distances.
雖然古羅馬道路因這些原因經(jīng)常受到關(guān)注,但也應(yīng)注意到其他古代文明,如中國和印度,同樣擁有令人印象深刻的道路系統(tǒng)。
古代中國:古代中國也建設(shè)了廣泛的道路網(wǎng)絡(luò),例如著名的絲綢之路,連接了中國與中亞、中東和歐洲。這些路線促進(jìn)了貿(mào)易和文化交流,跨越了廣闊的距離。
古代印度:古代印度擁有一套完善的道路系統(tǒng),被稱為“王家之路”或“皇家道路”。這些道路用于印度次大陸各個(gè)地區(qū)之間的貿(mào)易和通訊,并由統(tǒng)治王朝進(jìn)行維護(hù)。
盡管在西方歷史敘事中經(jīng)常強(qiáng)調(diào)古羅馬道路,但重要的是要認(rèn)識(shí)到其他古代文明在道路建設(shè)和網(wǎng)絡(luò)發(fā)展方面的成就。每個(gè)文明都有其獨(dú)特的工程技術(shù)、材料和道路系統(tǒng)的目的,所有這些都促進(jìn)了各自地區(qū)交通運(yùn)輸和互聯(lián)互通的進(jìn)步。
According to Matthew Jones in 1999’s New Civil Engineering, "In engineering terms the Chinese roads were more technologically advanced than their Roman counterparts.
Roman roads relied on thickness and rigidity, and sometimes needed excavations up to 2m deep. This meant they were long lasting but allowed nothing for temperature induced expansion or contraction. They were consequently prone to surface fissuring and uneven drainage.
根據(jù)1999年《新土木工程》雜志上馬修·瓊斯的說法,“在工程技術(shù)上,中國的道路比其羅馬同行更為先進(jìn)。羅馬道路依賴于厚度和剛性,有時(shí)需要挖掘達(dá)2米深。這意味著它們耐久,但無法應(yīng)對(duì)溫度引起的膨脹或收縮。因此,它們?nèi)菀壮霈F(xiàn)表面開裂和排水不暢的問題。
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So according to him, the Chinese did create good roads it just that their road system wasn’t as extensive as Rome’s and forgotten as it was largely abandoned by 300 A.D. with advent of in-land waterways.
另一方面,中國的道路更類似于現(xiàn)代的高速公路,更薄且更具彈性。它們建有碎石子基層,上面鋪有精密夯實(shí)的碎石層,形成了“水結(jié)碎石路面”(water-bound macadam)?!?br /> 因此,根據(jù)他的觀點(diǎn),中國確實(shí)建造了優(yōu)良的道路,只是他們的道路系統(tǒng)不如羅馬的廣泛,而且隨著內(nèi)陸水路的出現(xiàn),在公元300年左右基本被廢棄,逐漸被遺忘。
It is people's prerogative what they talk about. And Roman roads certainly deserve a talk. The roads have earned it.
However don't lose heart. I will tell you a little secret. The great wall of China, you know its not just a wall its well known function was to allow mobility of messengers and thus it is a kind of ancient road in itself.
人們有權(quán)選擇他們想要談?wù)摰脑掝}。羅馬道路確實(shí)值得探討,它們贏得了這樣的稱贊。
然而,不要灰心。我告訴你一個(gè)小秘密。你知道中國的長(zhǎng)城,它不僅僅是一堵墻,它的主要功能之一是允許使者通行,因此在某種程度上可以看作是古代的一種道路。
再來說說印度。大約2500年前,印度人修建了一條道路,至今仍在使用,它一直在使用,因此在不同的統(tǒng)治者手中經(jīng)歷了多次修理。事實(shí)上,世界上有多少條道路能夠自豪地說見證了從孔雀王朝到莫臥兒王朝、瑪拉達(dá)王國、英國殖民者再到現(xiàn)代印度的變遷?是的,印度就有這樣一條道路,那就是大干線公路(Grand Trunk Road),最初被稱為Uttarpatha。
Although China, and to a lesser extent, India, no doubt had roads, they could not compare with the Roman roads which were remarkable for the time. They were wide enough to allow armies to march several abreast as well as ample room for carts and cavalry. Many had pavements, drainage ditches and milestones.
However, one of the most important features is that were were straight, lixing cities across the empire, with the help of bridges and viaducts.
雖然中國,在較小的程度上,印度無疑也有道路,但它們與羅馬的道路無法比擬,后者在當(dāng)時(shí)是非常引人注目的。羅馬道路寬闊到足以讓軍隊(duì)多人并肩行進(jìn),同時(shí)還有足夠的空間供馬車和騎兵使用。許多道路鋪設(shè)有石鋪路面,設(shè)有排水溝和里程碑。
然而,最重要的特點(diǎn)之一是這些道路是筆直的,通過橋梁和高架橋連接帝國內(nèi)的城市。
The foreground is a section of Roman Road constructed in Germany during the second century A.D. It has not been maintained. It was used so heavily and for so many years that wagon wheels wore grooves in the stone.
Freezing, thawing, rain, snow, heavy traffic - the road (at least this section) is as smooth as any Autobahn or Interstate Highway, all it needs is a layer of asphalt.
Roads usual;y fail because of uplifts or drops in the underlying foundations. This section had no shifts in almost 2,000 years. That is amazing.
這張照片顯示的是公元2世紀(jì)在德國建造的一段羅馬道路。至今沒有得到維護(hù)。它使用非常頻繁,經(jīng)過多年的使用,馬車的車輪在石頭上磨出了車轍。
凍結(jié)、融化、雨雪、大量車輛——這條道路(至少是這一段)如同任何一條高速公路或州際公路般平整,只需鋪上一層瀝青即可。
通常道路失效是因?yàn)榛A(chǔ)下層的隆起或下沉。而這一段近兩千年來并沒有發(fā)生任何變動(dòng),這真是令人驚嘆的。
Considering a majority of them STILL exist, and some even are still being used as everyday routes I’d say yea….The Romans didnt build things not to last….also, being the 1st civilization to have roads thruout their empire (Europe) helping trade routes and such, they were WAY ahead of their time.
考慮到大部分羅馬道路至今仍然存在,并且有些甚至仍在作為日常通道使用,我會(huì)說……羅馬人建造的東西是有持久性的。他們是第一個(gè)在整個(gè)帝國(歐洲)內(nèi)建造道路的文明,這促進(jìn)了貿(mào)易路線等方面,可謂是遙遙領(lǐng)先于他們的時(shí)代。
Don’t know about China or India, but I doubt that India had an extensive road net because they often did not have an Imperial government to create them. The amazing thing about the Roman roads is that they have lasted 2,000 years and are still in use in many areas. Could no are that to modern roads that require a rebuild every 5 years and are really pretty shoddy.
我不清楚中國或印度,但我懷疑印度沒有建立廣泛的道路網(wǎng)絡(luò),因?yàn)樗麄兺ǔ]有一個(gè)帝國政府來創(chuàng)建這些道路。羅馬道路令人驚奇的地方在于它們已經(jīng)持續(xù)存在了兩千年,并且在許多地區(qū)仍在使用。這與現(xiàn)代道路形成了鮮明對(duì)比,后者每五年就需要重建,質(zhì)量也相當(dāng)差勁。
yes they were. you can walk on some today.And, no, ancient Asian roads do not compare. In fact Roman concrete is vastly superior to our own 21st century material. It has not been duplicated
是的,他們是。今天你仍然可以走在一些羅馬道路上。而且,古代亞洲的道路無法與之相比。事實(shí)上,羅馬的混凝土遠(yuǎn)比我們現(xiàn)代的材料優(yōu)越。它還未被復(fù)制過。
Think that the Roman roads were characterised by . being spacious, straight and leading to one destination,so to say, Rome.Indian roads passed through thug infested and wild animals infested areas,thick jungles,but were shady to travellers.Chinese were spacious but inhospitable.
我認(rèn)為羅馬道路的特點(diǎn)是寬敞、筆直,通向一個(gè)目的地,也就是羅馬。印度的道路穿過盜匪出沒和野生動(dòng)物頻繁的地區(qū),茂密的叢林,但對(duì)旅行者來說是安全的。中國的道路寬敞但不適合居住。
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Because modern european , North african and middle estern’s highways systems are about the same of ancient romans’ , China and India had some isolated unpaved roads like the grand trunk road nothing like roman road system in terms of extension and techniques , in fact romans built a road-network long something like 400.000 km of roads 85.000-100.000 of them were paved and all with an efficient drainage system .
因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)代歐洲、北非和中東的高速公路系統(tǒng)與古羅馬的類似,中國和印度只有一些孤立的未鋪設(shè)道路,比如大主干道,就延伸和技術(shù)而言,與羅馬的道路系統(tǒng)完全不同。事實(shí)上,羅馬人建造了大約40萬公里的道路網(wǎng)絡(luò),其中大約8.5萬到10萬公里鋪設(shè)了石板,并且所有道路都有高效的排水系統(tǒng)。
但最令人印象深刻的是它們都是筆直的,古羅馬人克服了巨大的障礙來建造這些道路。他們建造了933座拱橋,跨越萊茵河或多瑙河等大河,其中一些長(zhǎng)達(dá)1英里。這些橋的承載能力在30到52噸之間,就像現(xiàn)代的橋梁一樣強(qiáng)大。他們還進(jìn)行了像多納斯這樣的開挖工程,在此處羅馬人通過開鑿阿爾卑斯山脈修筑了長(zhǎng)達(dá)221米的道路?;蛘呦窳芽谏剑∕ontagna spaccata)那樣,羅馬人實(shí)際上將 290 米長(zhǎng)的山丘鑿成 2 座,羅馬人甚至建造了令人印象深刻的隧道,例如沿著弗拉米尼亞大道的富爾洛峽谷(la gola del furlo)或長(zhǎng)達(dá)1公里的科切斯亞諾洞(grotta di cocceiano)。當(dāng)羅馬人需要穿越沼澤時(shí),他們修建了堤道或高架橋。因此,無論是中國人還是印度人,他們都沒有建造出任何接近這些規(guī)模的工程。
the first Chinese roads were built around 1200 bc while rome built its first road around 313 bc the appian way, by the time the romans built their first road the Chinese already had built 20,000 kilometers of roads. The difference between the 2 was that the roman road was one carriageway wide while the Chinese were 5 carriageways wide with markers designating the carriageway. The peasants and workers were only allowed to travel on 1 and 5 carriageways, merchants and traders 2 and 4 while the emperor and ambassadors the middle carriageway
中國的第一條道路建于公元前1200年左右,而羅馬在公元前313年左右修建了第一條道路——亞壁古道。到羅馬人建造他們的第一條道路時(shí),中國已經(jīng)建造了2萬公里的道路。兩者之間的差異在于,羅馬的道路只有一條車道寬,而中國的道路有5條車道寬,并設(shè)有標(biāo)志來指示各條車道的用途。農(nóng)民和工人只允許使用第1和第5條車道,商人和商人只允許在2和4行車道上通行,而皇帝和使臣只允許在中間行車道上通行