為什么印度不像中國那樣對Su-35和陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)進(jìn)行逆向工程，并利用技術(shù)轉(zhuǎn)讓在印度制造更便宜的陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)復(fù)制品？KB：要逆向工程一架Su-35或者Rafale幾乎是不可能的！

Why does India not reverse engineer Su-35 and Rafale and use tech transfer to make cheaper copies of Rafale in India like China does?

2024-02-02 驛路遛馬 17167 79 93 收藏糾錯&舉報

譯文簡介

當(dāng)你想要逆向工程一架戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)時，你并不是在逆向工程一架飛機(jī)。你是在逆向工程制造這片渦輪葉片的鑄造廠。你是在逆向工程涉及其中的材料科學(xué)。你是在逆向工程制造這些零件的銑床。你是在逆向工程制造出異國情調(diào)的超純金屬合金的冶煉廠。你是在逆向工程飛行航空電子學(xué)中的軟件，裝配飛機(jī)的制造過程，以及在那些冶煉廠和銑床上工作的熟練勞動力。

正文翻譯

評論翻譯

Kanthaswamy Balasubramaniam
This Reverse Engineering Business is HIGHLY EXAGGERATED

這種逆向工程的說法被嚴(yán)重夸大了。

Its one thing to reverse engineer a Tubelight or a Toy Helicopter.

逆向工程一支熒光燈或者一架玩具直升機(jī)是一回事。

Its next to impossible to Reverse Engineer a Su-35 or a Rafale. In fact it would require far more talent to reverse engineer these specs than to learn the concepts and do the entire thing from scratch.

要逆向工程一架Su-35或者Rafale幾乎是不可能的。事實(shí)上，逆向工程這些規(guī)格需要的才華遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)超過從頭學(xué)習(xí)概念并從零開始完成整個項目。

Maybe the Design can be copied but there are too many things in an aircraft and its just impossible to split it open and reverse engineer.

也許設(shè)計可以被復(fù)制，但飛機(jī)里有太多的東西，拆開并逆向工程幾乎是不可能的。

Its the same as taking a Coca Cola Drink- reverse engineering the chemicals and percentage and developing Boca Cola. It would be easier to use your own mix of chemicals and improvise till you get a good taste.

這就像拿著一瓶可樂，逆向工程其中的化學(xué)成分和比例，然后制造出“Boca Cola”一樣。事實(shí)上，使用自己的化學(xué)混合物并進(jìn)行改良直至獲得好的口感會更容易。

Even on Discovery - Many Experts refute this Reverse Engineering and one Designer of Lockheed Martin - a Top Aircraft Company says Its Impossible to reverse engineer a Fighter. It would cost you more effort and you would need to be far more skilled than to be able to create your own fighter.

即使在Discovery頻道上 - 許多專家都反駁了逆向工程的說法，洛克希德·馬丁公司的一位設(shè)計師 - 一家頂級飛機(jī)公司的設(shè)計師說逆向工程一架戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)是不可能的。這需要更多的努力和比創(chuàng)造自己的戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)還需要更高的技能水平。

If it was that easy everyone would be doing it. I mean the Israelis are equally talented so they can simply make their own F-22 Raptor. Singapore could make its own F-18. We could make our own Ferraris.

如果那么容易，每個人都會這樣做。我的意思是，以色列人同樣富有才華，所以他們可以制造自己的F-22猛禽。新加坡可以制造自己的F-18。我們也能制造自己的法拉利。

The bottom line is Reverse Engineering is not so easy and is literally impossible for more advanced designs like Engines or Airfrxs or Wingtips or Control Guidance Systems.

歸根結(jié)底，逆向工程并不那么容易，對于像引擎、機(jī)身、機(jī)翼或者控制引導(dǎo)系統(tǒng)這樣更先進(jìn)的設(shè)計來說，逆向工程幾乎是不可能的。

I think China just likes the world to think they reverse engineer when in reality i think they send students, learn the fundamentals, try, try and try and finally succeed.

我認(rèn)為中國只是希望世界認(rèn)為他們在進(jìn)行逆向工程，而實(shí)際上我認(rèn)為他們是派遣學(xué)生，學(xué)習(xí)基礎(chǔ)知識，嘗試，不斷嘗試，最終成功。

Sure people say the Chinese J-20 looks same as the Raptor etc etc but frankly there are not too many Aerodynamic designs in the world. All Airplanes look vaguely similar to each other.

當(dāng)然，有人說中國的J-20看起來和猛禽等相似，但坦白說，世界上的空氣動力學(xué)設(shè)計并不是很多。所有的飛機(jī)在外觀上都有些相似。

One Simple thing - It requires 75000 Parameters to design a Wing for a Fighter. 75,000 Parameters. So can you imagine reverse engineering a Wing????

一個簡單的事實(shí) - 設(shè)計一架戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)的機(jī)翼需要75000個參數(shù)。75000個參數(shù)。那么你能想象逆向工程一對機(jī)翼嗎？
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://nxnpts.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處

Even an Architect who copies a design has to get the entire schematics to do the structural engineering. Just give the Architect the design of a building and he simply cannot redesign the building unless he has an unlimited budget. For instance a Brunei Sheikh who wanted a Replica of the White House found his bill would be $ 8.25 Billion which is far more than the White House is valued today

即使是模仿設(shè)計的建筑師，也必須獲得整個結(jié)構(gòu)圖以進(jìn)行結(jié)構(gòu)工程設(shè)計。只是給建筑師一座建筑的設(shè)計，并且他不能重新設(shè)計這座建筑，除非他有無限的預(yù)算。例如，一位想要建造白宮復(fù)制品的文萊謝赫發(fā)現(xiàn)，他的賬單將達(dá)到82.5億美元，遠(yuǎn)遠(yuǎn)超過了今天白宮的估值。

Ajoy Roy
Reverse engineering is a complicated affair. Yes you can copy the shape and internals. While that is very easily done with simple obxts - toys, clothes and some appliances, there are a host of other issues involved when you attempt to copy advanced and complicated obxts.

逆向工程是一項復(fù)雜的事務(wù)。是的，你可以復(fù)制形狀和內(nèi)部結(jié)構(gòu)。雖然在簡單的物體上，如玩具、衣服和一些電器中，這樣做是非常容易的，但在嘗試復(fù)制先進(jìn)和復(fù)雜的物體時涉及到許多其他問題。

Advanced or state of art machinery uses state of art materials. You can copy the shape, but what about materials. For that you need a whole infrastructure and design capability.

先進(jìn)或先進(jìn)技術(shù)的機(jī)械使用了先進(jìn)技術(shù)的材料。你可以復(fù)制形狀，但材料呢？為此，你需要完整的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和設(shè)計能力。

Advanced machinery required advanced manufacturing. That involves both machine tools and assembly procedures.
Both the above require your own expertise that comes with R&D and practice, and that takes a lot of effort (both monitory and personnel) as well as time. This is some thing no amount of copying will give you.

先進(jìn)的機(jī)械需要先進(jìn)的制造技術(shù)。這涉及到機(jī)床和裝配程序。以上兩者都需要研發(fā)和實(shí)踐帶來的專業(yè)知識，而這需要大量的努力（包括資金和人員），以及時間。這是無法通過簡單復(fù)制獲得的。

For example
a) India use Russian tanks. The treads are imported from Russia. Why? Because as yet India has not been able to manufacture steel of that particular quality. Indian tank treads last less than half that of Russian treads.

例如
a) 印度使用俄羅斯坦克。履帶是從俄羅斯進(jìn)口的。為什么？因?yàn)橛《戎两襁€沒有能夠制造出那種特定質(zhì)量的鋼鐵。印度坦克履帶的壽命不到俄羅斯坦克履帶的一半。

b) Jet engines (and power turbines) use turbine blades. These are now a days made of special ceramic/steel composite and require advanced manufacturing techniques. Very few companies have mastered the design and manufacture of turbine blades. Even Chinese who are past masters at copying still buy jet engines, and so do Indians.

b) 噴氣發(fā)動機(jī)（和動力渦輪機(jī)）使用渦輪葉片。這些葉片現(xiàn)在通常由特殊的陶瓷/鋼復(fù)合材料制成，需要先進(jìn)的制造技術(shù)。很少有公司掌握了渦輪葉片的設(shè)計和制造技術(shù)。即使是擅長復(fù)制的中國企業(yè)，也仍然購買噴氣發(fā)動機(jī)，印度也是如此。

So yes we can reverse engineer fighter aircraft, but only when we can manufacture critical components to that standard on our own, but then you will not need to reverse engineer, just design and build your own.

所以是的，我們可以逆向工程戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)，但只有當(dāng)我們能夠自行制造符合標(biāo)準(zhǔn)的關(guān)鍵組件時。但那時你將不需要逆向工程，只需設(shè)計和建造自己的。

Franklin Veaux
There’s this idea that if you can take some mechanical thing apart and see how all the parts work, you can build a new one.

有這樣一個觀念，如果你能拆解某個機(jī)械物體并看到所有零件是如何工作的，你就能建造一個新的。

Nope. It doesn’t work that way.

不，事實(shí)并非如此。

This:

這個

is a nickel superalloy turbine blade. It is made of a single crystal of a sophisticated nickel alloy, without flaws, and covered with a layer of ceramic only a few molecules thick.

是一片鎳基高溫合金渦輪葉片。它由一塊精密的鎳合金單晶制成，沒有瑕疵，并覆蓋有一層只有幾個分子厚的陶瓷。

Okay, so you have this in your hand. Now what?

好的，那么你手里有這個了?，F(xiàn)在怎么辦？

Do you know how to make a part from a single crystal of metal? Do you know how to deposit the coating on it? Do you know how to do this without the tiniest flaw or inclusion?

你知道如何從金屬的單晶中制造零件嗎？你知道如何在上面涂覆涂層嗎？你知道如何在沒有最微小缺陷或夾雜的情況下完成這個過程嗎？

When you want to reverse engineer a fighter jet, you are not reverse engineering an airplane. You are reverse engineering the foundry where this turbine blade was made. You are reverse engineering the materials science that went into it. You are reverse engineering the milling machines that made the parts. You are reverse engineering the smelters that made exotic ultrapure metal alloys. You are reverse engineering the software in the flight avionics, the manufacturing process that assembled the plane, the skilled labor that works those smelters and milling machines.

當(dāng)你想要逆向工程一架戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)時，你并不是在逆向工程一架飛機(jī)。你是在逆向工程制造這片渦輪葉片的鑄造廠。你是在逆向工程涉及其中的材料科學(xué)。你是在逆向工程制造這些零件的銑床。你是在逆向工程制造出異國情調(diào)的超純金屬合金的冶煉廠。你是在逆向工程飛行航空電子學(xué)中的軟件，裝配飛機(jī)的制造過程，以及在那些冶煉廠和銑床上工作的熟練勞動力。

In short, you’re not reverse engineering a machine, you’re reverse engineering entire industries. And you’re doing it without seeing the industries, only the obxt they make.

簡而言之，你不是在逆向工程一臺機(jī)器，你是在逆向工程整個產(chǎn)業(yè)。而且你是在沒有看到這些產(chǎn)業(yè)，只看到它們制造的物體的情況下進(jìn)行的。

Fighter planes are not made from off-the-shelf parts. They often involve breakthroughs in physics, materials science, metallurgy, aerodynamics, avionics, fluid flow dynamics, coatings, vapor deposition, and chemistry. Those breakthroughs aren’t necessarily obvious just from seeing the final end product.

戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)不是用現(xiàn)成零件組裝而成的。它們通常涉及到物理學(xué)、材料科學(xué)、冶金學(xué)、空氣動力學(xué)、航空電子學(xué)、流體動力學(xué)、涂層、蒸發(fā)沉積和化學(xué)等方面的突破。這些突破并不一定從看到最終成品就能明顯地看出來。

Start with the turbine blade. You look at it. You X-Ray it. You sample a chip and examine it under an electron microscope. You know it’s made from just one flawless crystal. How? How was it made?

以渦輪葉片為例。你看著它。你用X光照射它。你取樣一塊芯片，并在電子顯微鏡下檢查它。你知道它是由一個完美無瑕的晶體制成的。怎么制造的？是如何制造的？

印度中國 Su-35 陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī) 技術(shù) 印度制造

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為什么印度不像中國那樣對Su-35和陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)進(jìn)行逆向工程，并利用技術(shù)轉(zhuǎn)讓在印度制造更便宜的陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)復(fù)制品？KB：要逆向工程一架Su-35或者Rafale幾乎是不可能的！

為什么印度不像中國那樣對Su-35和陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)進(jìn)行逆向工程，并利用技術(shù)轉(zhuǎn)讓在印度制造更便宜的陣風(fēng)戰(zhàn)斗機(jī)復(fù)制品？KB：要逆向工程一架Su-35或者Rafale幾乎是不可能的！