話題討論：烏克蘭總司令扎盧日內(nèi)與總統(tǒng)澤連斯基鬧內(nèi)訌，并向美國獅子大開口，要求提供1700萬枚炮彈，3500-4000億美元的資產(chǎn)和人員--part2
UA POV: Zaluhzny complained to Pentagon chief about the President’s Office and asked for 17 million shells - Pravda
譯文簡介
扎盧日內(nèi)向五角大樓負責(zé)人抱怨本國總統(tǒng)辦公室，并要求提供1700萬枚炮彈
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The last time Rybar counted it, the funding toward Ukrainian was reaching 333 billions, which should all be spent by early 2024.
在Rybar最近一次統(tǒng)計中，對烏克蘭的資金達到3330億美元，這些資金應(yīng)該會在2024年初全部花完。
是的，1700萬枚炮彈可能會有所幫助，但4000億是不夠的。尤其是當(dāng)他們的人力也在耗盡的時候。
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400 bil $ is bigger then the whole budget of Russia. They can just go and buy Russia.
4000億美元比俄羅斯的整個預(yù)算還要大。他們可以直接去買下俄羅斯。
Pravda has really thrown in its hat against Zaluzhny. Second "weeks-old story we just heard about" in a day. There's an actual power struggle in the midst of a war.
《真理報》真的在反對扎總。一天之內(nèi)第二次聽到“我們剛剛聽到的幾周前的話題”。在戰(zhàn)爭期間，他們竟然真的的在搞權(quán)力斗爭。
well it is state "news" so what did you expect?
這是一個國有“新聞機構(gòu)”，你想要啥自行車？
Pravda is not state-owned.
And it’s not even pro-Zelenskyy.
真理報不是國有的。
它甚至不是親澤連斯基的。
While a bit tongue in cheek, UA Pravda is owned by Dragon Capital. One of Dragon Capital's chief investors is... drum roll... George Soros. There probably isn't a man on this planet who is a bigger exporter of propaganda than George Soros. Propaganda and king making are literally his two main activities of business. A very evil man, about that there is no question.
雖然有點開玩笑，但烏克蘭《真理報》由龍資本所有。而龍資本的主要投資者之一是……鼓聲響起來……喬治·索羅斯。在這個星球上，恐怕沒有人比喬治·索羅斯更擅長宣傳了。宣傳和造王實際上是他的兩項主要業(yè)務(wù)。一個非常邪惡的人，這是毫無疑問的。
There is no way Ukraine is going to get funding like this. This report alone could scuttle any further European or American aid deals.
烏克蘭不可能得到這樣的資金。單是這份報告就可能使歐洲或美國的任何進一步援助協(xié)議落空。
“今天再撒500億美元有什么意義，我們都知道這是不夠的!”
The goal of NATO isn't liberation of Ukraine, but attrition of Russia. So every dollar counts and they will flow, as long as Ukrainians are willing to die, or until elections change priorities in every single country.
北約的目標不是解放烏克蘭，而是消耗俄羅斯。因此，每一美元都很重要，只要烏克蘭人愿意犧牲，或者直到選舉改變每個國家的優(yōu)先事項，它們都會源源不斷地流入烏克蘭。
If I'm not mistaken, $400bn is about a half of the whole DoD budget.
如果我沒記錯的話，4000億美元大約是（美國）全部國防部預(yù)算的一半。
It seems the info was leaked to make Zaluzhny look bad. TG:legitimniy
看來這次泄露信息是為了讓扎盧日內(nèi)出丑。
“班科娃向媒體泄露了美國國防部長奧斯汀抵達的部分內(nèi)幕消息，后者會見了總司令扎盧日內(nèi)?？偨y(tǒng)辦公室主任泄露了這一消息。內(nèi)部人士強調(diào)，扎盧日內(nèi)向每個人抱怨辦公室工作人員，并要求獲得全世界都沒有的數(shù)百萬枚彈藥。這樣，扎盧日內(nèi)就被塑造成了一個“缺乏理智”的角色，一個在法權(quán)統(tǒng)一中引入不平衡的角色。據(jù)說，一切都是扎總的錯，而不是澤圣的。這是班科瓦抹黑總司令政策的延續(xù)，泄露給UP的消息是有人控制的。
我們將補充那些工作人員緘口不言的內(nèi)容。
奧斯汀警告澤連斯基，扎盧日內(nèi)的辭職將會影響國際社會的支持。許多國家可能會開始無視基輔的求助請求，因為他們會認為澤是一個篡位者，一邊躲在戰(zhàn)爭后面，一邊自己卻在建立自己的獨裁政權(quán)。烏克蘭將發(fā)現(xiàn)自己更加孤立。
美國的共和黨將利用扎盧日內(nèi)的辭職，并將阻止對基輔的任何援助。
如果扎盧日內(nèi)要求班科瓦承擔(dān)責(zé)任，并指責(zé)他犯了許多錯誤，那么許多世界領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人將公開支持他。美國將私下支持總司令，但公開扮演“裁判”的角色。
順便說一句，該網(wǎng)立即報道了奧斯汀前來調(diào)解澤和扎，但正如我們所看到的，班科瓦亞不聽，繼續(xù)對總司令進行信息攻擊?！?/b>
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Well, I think the only countries that can actually help with that kind of demand is Russia or North Korea.... HMM, ops.
嗯，我認為唯一能真正幫助滿足這種需求的國家是俄羅斯或朝鮮……嗯，哎呀。
Well, he didn’t exactly specify how he would like his 17 million shells delivered into the Ukraine or from where?
他并沒有具體說明要怎么把那一千七百萬枚炮彈運到烏克蘭或者從哪里運?
I'm quite sure both would happily sell some shells to Ukraine. I wouldn't actually be surprised if it would be already happening to some extent. I bet quite a few pieces of equipment from both sides has already been traded; Ukrainians selling some western aid to Russian units and Russian units some ammo to Ukrainians.
我敢肯定，兩國都很樂意把炮彈賣給烏克蘭。如果它已經(jīng)在某種程度上發(fā)生了，我不會感到驚訝。我敢打賭，雙方已經(jīng)交換了不少裝備；烏克蘭人向俄羅斯單位出售一些西方援助，俄羅斯單位向烏克蘭人出售一些彈藥。
17 million shells? There are no such shells in any country of this world. It's impossible, which means he's after the negotiation option, unlike Zelensky.
1700萬發(fā)炮彈? 世界上任何一個國家都沒有這樣多炮彈。這是不可能的，也就是說他想談判，不像澤連斯基。
China and India and probably the US do have those many shells.
中國和印度，可能還有美國，確實有這么多的炮彈。
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在某種程度上，令人驚訝的是朝鮮也是如此。
但他們都不想分享，除了朝鮮大概有點想，而且他們的質(zhì)量是……變量，會與你想要的炮彈相反。
Zaluzhny gotta be preparing an excuse to end the war, I think. There is no way he would ask for 350-400 billion USD on a serious note, as well as 17 million shells. He purposefully asks for impossible things, so that he can then throw hands into the air and say "Well, we didn't get what we asked, so we gotta give up". At least that's what it seems to me.
我想扎盧日內(nèi)一定在準備借口以結(jié)束戰(zhàn)爭。他不可能要求3500 - 4000億美元和1700萬枚炮彈。他故意提出不可能實現(xiàn)的要求，這樣他就可以把手舉起來，說:“好吧，我們沒有得到我們要求的，所以我們必須放棄。”至少在我看來是這樣。
Zaluzhny gotta be preparing an excuse to end the war
He can't end the war now, because Russia wouldn't accept it. Even if Russia accepted that they can't achieve their maximalist goals in Ukraine, they still have to achieve their minimal goals (as of now) of capturing Donbass, and two additional oblasts that Russia included in their constitution, but still doesn't control. For Ukraine to end the war politically, as a bare minimum it would have to give up large territories that it still controls. Not going to happen any time soon.
他現(xiàn)在無法結(jié)束戰(zhàn)爭，因為俄國不會接受。即使俄羅斯承認他們無法在烏克蘭實現(xiàn)他們的最大目標，他們?nèi)匀槐仨殞崿F(xiàn)他們的最小目標(截至目前)，即占領(lǐng)頓巴斯，以及另外兩個俄羅斯納入其憲法但仍未控制的州。對于烏克蘭來說，要想從政治上結(jié)束這場戰(zhàn)爭，它至少必須放棄仍在控制的大片領(lǐng)土。短期內(nèi)是不會發(fā)生的。
Agree, except that by "giving up" he means maximalist goal of restoring the 1991 border, Ukraine is not going to give up on defensive war. That's essentially what he's alluding to, when he says: (if this is even a true leak, and not typical yellow press "insider information")
同意，除了他所說的“放棄”是指恢復(fù)1991年邊界的最大目標，烏克蘭不會放棄防御戰(zhàn)爭。當(dāng)他這樣說時，這基本上就是他暗示的意思(如果這是真正的泄密，而不是典型的標題黨媒體的“內(nèi)幕消息”)：
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要完成總統(tǒng)的任務(wù)，解放整個烏克蘭領(lǐng)土，需要3500億至4000億美元的力量和手段。”
350-400 billion USD
and
17 million shells
Ukraine is fighting alone against Russia
3500-4000億美元，
以及
1700萬發(fā)炮彈，
烏克蘭正在獨自對抗俄羅斯。
Would say the 400b is too low. If NATO calculations showed that they should have breached the front and push 15km a day, the same would apply here.
要我說4000億太少了。如果北約的計算表明他們應(yīng)該突破前線，每天推進15公里，那么同樣的計算也適用于這里。
I mean, at least he's upfront about the requirements. A couple of tanks here and there won't do anything meaningful.
我是說，至少他對要求很坦率。這里那里散布的幾輛坦克不會帶來任何有意義的結(jié)果。
No way to know at this point why he would make such a ridiculous request. Mind you, I think he has made ridiculous requests in the past that have been granted, such as he just needed to be given as many tanks as in the British Army and he could be in Crimea. Maybe he intentionally makes requests that are absurd enough that it will look like he is trying to win but he wants the request to be rejected so he doesn't have to send his men off to be slaughtered. Or the request is being made public in an attempt to damage him, idk.
到了這一刻，沒辦法知道他為什么會提出這樣一個荒謬的要求。請注意，我認為他過去提出過一些荒謬的要求，而這些要求都被批準了，比如他只需要得到和英國軍隊一樣多的坦克，他就可以打到克里米亞。也許他故意提出一些荒謬的要求，從而表現(xiàn)得想要贏得勝利，但他希望這個請求被拒絕，這樣他就不必讓他的人被屠殺了?；蛘哌@個請求是為了傷害他才被公開的。
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US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was informed during a visit to Kyiv that Ukraine needed 17 million rounds of ammunition and that US$350-400 billion worth of assets and personnel would be required to liberate the country.
美國國防部長勞埃德·奧斯汀在訪問基輔期間被告知，烏克蘭需要1700萬發(fā)彈藥，解放這個國家需要價值3500 - 4000億美元的資產(chǎn)和人員。
This is basically signalling that recovery of 2014 or even 2022 borders is not possible any more.
Probably to pressure the president to negotiate?
這基本上表明，恢復(fù)2014年甚至2022年的邊界是不可能的了。
可能是為了迫使總統(tǒng)參與談判?
US$350-400 billion worth of assets and personnel would be required to liberate the country.
most reasonable aid request
“解放這個國家需要3500 - 4000億美元的資產(chǎn)和人員?！?br /> 最合理的援助請求
They won’t be able to do it even if given all that money and resources. Only direct American military intervention can return Ukraine to its 2014 borders. And that is not happening.
即使把這些錢和資源都給他們，他們也做不到。只有美國的直接軍事干預(yù)才能讓烏克蘭回到2014年的邊界。但這并沒有發(fā)生。
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well that sucks, looks like the ukraine is lost then
好吧，糟透了，看來烏克蘭輸了。
They're definitely not lost. They're just not going to retake much if any territory.
他們絕對沒有輸。他們只是不打算奪回太多領(lǐng)土。
I'd say it's better then being taken over completely by the Russians. Losing only 10% of it's territory and remaining an independent state is a victory in of itself. Before the invasion, pundits were saying the Russians were going to take over the entire country and install a puppet government in Kiev.
我想說，這比完全被俄羅斯人占領(lǐng)要好。只失去10%的領(lǐng)土，保持一個獨立的國家本身就是一種勝利。在入侵之前，專家們說俄羅斯人將占領(lǐng)整個國家，并在基輔扶植一個傀儡政府。
If Putin had called a mobilisation at the time he launched the invasion, he could have achieved that, but he was too much of a political coward, afraid of the consequences of mobilisation (which turned out to be a nothingburger) to do what he needed to do when he needed to do it.
如果普京在發(fā)動入侵時召集動員，他本可以做到這一點，但他太像一個政治懦夫，害怕動員的后果(結(jié)果毫無意義)，無法在需要的時候做他需要做的事情。
what makes you think the russians want to freeze the war if western aid won't be forthcoming
如果西方援助不會到來，你認為俄羅斯人為什么想要凍結(jié)戰(zhàn)爭？
Yes, we agree. I don't consider it strategically a loss for either the UKR or the west.
是的，我們同意。我不認為這在戰(zhàn)略上是烏克蘭或西方的失敗。
That's some huge numbers. Doubt it will happen
這些數(shù)字真大。懷疑不可能實現(xiàn)。
How about no.
如果回答no，閣下又該如何應(yīng)對？
how about yes :3
如果回答yes，閣下又該如何應(yīng)對？