歐盟圈討論：各國的“第二城”是哪個？沒能成為第一城的原因是？

What is your country''s "Second City" and what makes it fall short of being First?

2022-09-06 yzy86 9929 19 1 收藏糾錯&舉報

譯文簡介

就算里昂比其他城市更富裕、更有活力、人口也更多，更容易被看成“第二城”的是馬賽，原因有很多。

正文翻譯

（法國第二城馬賽）
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New York City is the United States' leading city. One of Chicago's nicknames is "The Second City", although its certainly arguable undeniable that LA has been more influential for decades.
What is the "second city" of your country - never quite as important for some reason as your "first city", and why? Does it have a chip on its shoulder for not being first?

紐約市是美國的頭號城市。芝加哥的其中一個綽號是“第二城”，盡管幾十年來洛杉磯的影響力無疑更大，當(dāng)然這也是可以討論的。
你們國家的“第二城”是哪個，出于某種原因從未像你們的“第一城”那么重要，又是為什么？它是否因?yàn)闆]有成為第一城而感到委屈？

評論翻譯

Axomio
That would be Porto. Porto metro area has around 1,7 million people living there, which is certainly less than Lisbon's 2,8 million, but still a lot of people. Due to its size Porto is obviously very important both economically and culturally, and it's even the place that gave Portugal its name. I'd also add that people from Porto are typically not very fond of Lisbon hahaha

（葡）會是波爾圖。波爾圖市區(qū)大約有170萬居民，這當(dāng)然比里斯本的280萬人少，但這些人也算挺多了。鑒于規(guī)模，波爾圖顯然在經(jīng)濟(jì)和文化上都是非常重要的，這個地方甚至是葡萄牙國名的來源。我還想補(bǔ)充的是，波爾圖人通常都不怎么喜歡里斯本哈哈哈。

Yep, as for why it falls short, probably a combination of consistent investment in Lisbon (as you'd expect, being the capital) and the fact Lisbon's been the capital of Portugal for more than 500 years at this point. Lisbon's central location and capital status means it draws in people from all over the country, giving it more population and continuing the cycle. A lot of people in Portugal have never been to Porto but you'll be hard pressed to find someone who's never been to Lisbon.
If something big's happening in Portugal, it's happening in Lisbon.

（回，葡）是的，至于為什么它成不了第一城，可能是因?yàn)閷锼贡镜某掷m(xù)投資（在你預(yù)料之內(nèi)，畢竟是首都），以及里斯本作為葡萄牙的首都已經(jīng)超過了五百年這個事實(shí)。里斯本所處的中心位置和首都地位，意味著它能吸引來自全國各地的人，使其擁有更多的人口并繼續(xù)這樣的循環(huán)。在葡萄牙，有很多人從來都沒有去過波爾圖，但你很難找到?jīng)]有去過里斯本的人。
如果葡萄牙有什么大事發(fā)生，那一定會發(fā)生在里斯本。

_MusicJunkie
None of them. Vienna is so disproportionately influential that there are no rivals. Vienna is too big for such a small country because it grew to be the capital of a significant empire.
During A-H empire times, this was different. Budapest and Prague would have been equivalents, with Budapest being more politically important, it essentially was the second capital.

（奧）沒有一個是。維也納的影響力大到不成比例，它根本沒有對手。對這么小一個國家來說，維也納太大了，因?yàn)樗谝粋€舉足輕重的帝國中生長為了首都。
在奧匈帝國時代，情況就不同了。布達(dá)佩斯和布拉格本該是等量齊觀的，而布達(dá)佩斯在政治上更重要，基本上它就是第二首都。

11160704
Impossible to answer for Germany.
Besides the capital Berlin there are 4 cities that have great importance: Hamburg, Munich, cologne and Frankfurt.
None of them is clearly above the others. They all have their specific importance.

（德）對德國來說，這個問題是無法回答的。
除了首都柏林，舉足輕重的還有四個城市。漢堡、慕尼黑、科隆和法蘭克福。
它們中沒有一個明顯超越其他城市。它們都有其獨(dú)特的重要性。

Munich (and Bavaria generally, the state that we’re in) loves to claim they are the first. Many here see Berlin as a dirty, chaotic city that just happens to have all the government buildings. I won’t judge, and Berlin is clearly first

（回，德）慕尼黑（和整個巴伐利亞，也就是我們所在的州）很喜歡自稱第一城。我們這里有很多人都認(rèn)為柏林是一個骯臟、混亂的城市，恰好坐擁所有的政府大樓。對此我不作評判，柏林顯然是第一城。

Having lived in Berlin for 4 years, my impression is that Berliners consider Munich to be the second city. Despite being an awful place filled with horrible people.

（回，英）在柏林生活了4年，我的印象是，在柏林人是把慕尼黑視為第二城的。盡管柏林是個很爛的地方，充滿了爛人。

Don't listen to them. Hamburg number 1 major city!
-Totally not biased northerner

（回，德）別聽他們的。漢堡才是第一大城市！
——一個完全沒有偏見的北方人

The pride comes from being a so called "free city"/ "merchant Republic" since its founding in the middle ages. Even though Berlin is a city state in the modern federal system aswell, Hamburg is much more fierce in valuing the symbolism behind it.

（回）漢堡人的這種自豪感來自于，它從中世紀(jì)建城以來就是一個所謂的“自由城市“/“商人共和國”。盡管柏林也是現(xiàn)代聯(lián)邦制度下的一個城邦，但漢堡在珍視其背后的象征意義方面要激進(jìn)得多。

As a Frankfurter, I would advise you to separate the question.
Are we the "2nd city" in Germany...? no. But Berlin is not place 1. Berlin is the seat of government and have the biggest population. Economically Berlin is pathetically weak compared to, Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg or Cologne and dependent on annual aid payments in the billions to not collapse.
Germany is not France or the UK, our capital is miles away from being the core of our economy. Economic and political power are geographically separated in our country.

（回，德）作為一個法蘭克福人，我建議你把這個問題分成幾個部分。
我們是德國的“第二城”嗎...？并不是。但柏林也不是第一城。柏林是政府所在地，擁有最多的人口。與慕尼黑、法蘭克福、漢堡和科隆相比，柏林在經(jīng)濟(jì)上弱得可憐，每年都要靠數(shù)十億的援助才能不崩潰。
德國不是法國也不是英國，我們的首都和我們的經(jīng)濟(jì)中心遠(yuǎn)隔千里。在我們國家，經(jīng)濟(jì)強(qiáng)市和政治強(qiáng)市在地理上是分隔開的。

Berlin is by far the largest population in Germany though, but GDP per capita is far less than Hamburg, half of Munich and far less than half of Frankfurt.
You need to remember that the reunification of Berlin was only 30 years ago, after 40 years of division. During the division almost all large companies relocated from West Berlin to other West German cities due to geographic isolation, and the economy of East Berlin completely collapsed in the 90s as soon as it faced international competition for the first time after decades of mismanagement.

（回，英）雖然柏林是迄今為止德國人口最多的城市，但人均GDP遠(yuǎn)低于漢堡，僅為慕尼黑的一半，也遠(yuǎn)低于法蘭克福的一半。
你需要記住的是，柏林的統(tǒng)一也只是三十年前的事，而且是在經(jīng)歷了四十年的分裂之后完成的。在分裂期間，由于地理上的隔絕，幾乎所有的大公司都從西柏林搬遷到了其他西德城市，而東柏林的經(jīng)濟(jì)在經(jīng)過了幾十年的管理不善后，在九十年代一面對國際競爭，就徹底崩潰了。

DatOudeLUL
For NL, Rotterdam lacks the aesthetic charm of Amsterdam (at in least in a more traditional Dutch architectural sense) and as significantly, has to compete with the Hague as the second city - as the two cities a.) very similar in size/population, b.) located very close to one another (they can easily be lumped into a broader metro-area); c.) as the seat of the government and the court of the royal family, den Haag furthers it's second city claim against Amsterdam (in comparison with Rotterdam) and is a sort of functional capital.

（荷）對荷蘭來說，鹿特丹缺乏阿姆斯特丹的美學(xué)魅力（至少從更傳統(tǒng)的荷蘭建筑角度看是如此），而且很明顯，鹿特丹不得不與海牙競爭第二城，
因?yàn)檫@兩個城市
1）在規(guī)模/人口方面非常近似
2）所在位置靠的很近（很容易就能把它們劃歸為一片更廣闊的都市區(qū)）
3) 作為政府和皇室的所在地，進(jìn)一步強(qiáng)化了海牙向阿姆斯特丹索要第二城名頭的主張（相比于鹿特丹），而且是某種功能性首都。

Also for better or for worse, Amsterdam receives more tourists than everywhere else in the Netherlands combined (citation needed but my educated hunch says this is factual), so it's the image many have or know the country as (and again its aesthetic fits that perception better than Rotterdam's does anyway).

不管怎樣，阿姆斯特丹接待的游客，比荷蘭其他地方接待的游客總和還要多（這一點(diǎn)需要引證，但我那以學(xué)養(yǎng)為基礎(chǔ)的直覺告訴我這是事實(shí)），總之它就是很多人對這個國家的印象（反正其審美也比鹿特丹更貼合這種觀感）。

"In the Hague it is decided that the money made by the Rotterdamned is being spent on Amsterdam." or something like that.

（回）“海牙決定把鹿特丹賺來的錢花在阿姆斯特丹上” 什么的。

SockRuse
Fun fact: 26.6 million people or nearly a third of all Germans live in the 80 cities with more than 100k inhabitants each. As a country we are exceedingly efficient at having a ton of small and medium sized cities all over the place.

（德）有趣的事實(shí)是：2660萬人，也即近三分之一的德國人生活在八十個居民人數(shù)均超過十萬的城市里。作為一個國家，我們在全國范圍內(nèi)擁有海量中小型城市方面是極為高效的。

I still can't understand it. How have young people not flocked to the major cities like they have in the rest of Europe? Small towns and villages are basically disappearing in many countries.

（回，保加利亞）我還是無法理解。為什么德國的年輕人沒有像歐洲其他國家那樣涌向大城市？在很多國家，小城鎮(zhèn)和村莊基本上是在不斷消失的。
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Big decentralization for ages. We just have several cities people flock to. In the lesser populated areas a move from a village to 250k inhabitant City is already a flock to the Major cities.

（回，德）大規(guī)模的去中心化建設(shè)已經(jīng)實(shí)施很久了。在我們這里，人們會成群涌向的城市只有幾個。在人口較少的地區(qū)，從一個村莊搬到有二十五萬居民的城市，已經(jīng)能算作是涌向大城市了。

And we have 4 Cities with a million inhabitants. Check their Distribution on the map, it is one in each cardinal direction. And every rural area usually still has a central hüben city with 100 or 250k+ inhabitants.

我們有四個擁有一百萬居民的城市。去查查它們在地圖上的分布，東西南北各有一個。每一片鄉(xiāng)村地區(qū)通常都有一個擁有十萬或二十五萬以上居民的中心樞紐城市。
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This being a thing for ages has also led to major companies forming and setting all over the place, so that there are different push and pull effects than in countries that are heavily centralized. Germany just couldnt start to try and centralized before 150 years ago, where either the System in France or Britain was already in place or countries where still under the control of another whose structure they partially adapted like with Austria-Hungary or the Ottomans.

這種現(xiàn)象已經(jīng)存在很長時間了，也導(dǎo)致了大公司的成立地或選址地遍布全國各地，因此，與那些中心化非常嚴(yán)重的國家相比，存在的推拉效應(yīng)也是不同的。德國在一百五十年前還完全沒有能力嘗試中心化，當(dāng)時法國或英國的制度已經(jīng)到位了，或者國家還在另一個國家的控制之下，其架構(gòu)已經(jīng)部分適應(yīng)了，比如說奧匈帝國或奧斯曼帝國。

ActiveSearcher56
French here, very centralized country so Paris is the first by far.
Even if Lyon if wealthier, more dynamic and populated than other cities, Marseille is more often considered as the "Second city" for various reasons :

我是法國人，法國是個中心化程度很高的國家，所以到目前為止，巴黎是第一城。
就算里昂比其他城市更富裕、更有活力、人口也更多，更容易被看成“第二城”的是馬賽，原因有很多。
原創(chuàng)翻譯：龍騰網(wǎng) http://nxnpts.cn 轉(zhuǎn)載請注明出處

Lyon was a very important city during the middle age and the Renaissance, but Marseille had, and still has, a stronger economic position because it is a notable port in Mediterranean Sea (which was the center of economic trades during Middle Age). It is one of the biggest in France, the city also welcome GQ of maritime companies and a lot of tourists from Mediterranean cruises, so this port is very important
Football rivality, l'OM is a famous FC and the only french one which has ever won the Champions League
The North-South opposition, rich -"poor" opposion too, like elite - people. The french hymn, popular, is named after Marseille ("La marseillaise").
Rap rivality, most of french rappers either come from Paris (and the suburbs) or Marseille, so a rivality appeared.

里昂在中世紀(jì)和文藝復(fù)興時期是一個非常重要的城市，但馬賽無論在過去還是現(xiàn)在，都坐擁著更高的經(jīng)濟(jì)地位，因?yàn)樗堑刂泻５貐^(qū)的一個著名港口（中世紀(jì)時，那里是經(jīng)濟(jì)貿(mào)易的中心）。它是法國最大的港口之一，這個城市也迎接了赤道幾內(nèi)亞的海運(yùn)公司和大量來自地中海游輪的游客，所以這個港口是非常重要的。
-足球的較量，馬賽隊(duì)（即奧林匹克馬賽足球俱樂部）是著名俱樂部，也是唯一一支贏得過歐洲冠軍聯(lián)賽的法國球隊(duì)。
-南北對立，也存在“貧”富對立，也即精英和民眾的對立。那首極為流行的法國贊歌是以馬賽命名的（《馬賽曲》）。
-說唱的較量，大多數(shù)法國說唱歌手都來自巴黎（及其郊區(qū)）或馬賽，所以就出現(xiàn)了這種較量。

Worst thing is that La Marseillaise doesn't even come from Marseille, but from Strasbourg.

（回，法）最糟糕的是，《馬賽曲》甚至不是來自馬賽，而是來自斯特拉斯堡。

FakeNathanDrake
Glasgow actually has more people than the capital, Edinburgh. Despite how some of the locals go on about it, Glasgow is definitely second (I’m from neither so I’m neutral here!), it wasn’t really a big deal until the slave trade kicked off, and by the time of the industrial revolution it was considered the “second city of the British Empirel.

（蘇格蘭）格拉斯哥的人口其實(shí)比首都愛丁堡還多。盡管有些當(dāng)?shù)厝藢@個問題喋喋不休，但格拉斯哥絕對是第二城（我不是這兩個城市的人，所以我在這個問題上是中立的?。陂_始奴隸貿(mào)易之前，格拉斯哥不算是什么重要城市，而到了工業(yè)革命時期，它被認(rèn)為是“大英帝國第二城”。
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medhelan
if we take the administrative municipality alone Rome has a biggest population, the municipality of Rome is veeeeeery large tho
if we go by urban area they're pretty much even, with the difference that most of the urban area of rome is within the municipality, while for Milan is spreaded in tens of municipalities other than the main one
if we go by Metropolitan Area Milan is way bigger, with Naples being very close to Rome

（北意大利）如果我們只算行政意義上的直轄市，則羅馬的人口是最多的，但羅馬直轄市可是非常大的。
如果按市區(qū)面積來算，它們基本持平，不同的是，羅馬的大部分市區(qū)面積都在直轄市內(nèi)，而米蘭的市區(qū)面積則分布在主城以外的幾十個自治市中。
而如果按都會區(qū)來算，米蘭就大得多了，而那不勒斯則非常接近羅馬。

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歐盟圈 第二城 第一城

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歐盟圈討論：各國的“第二城”是哪個？沒能成為第一城的原因是？

歐盟圈討論：各國的“第二城”是哪個？沒能成為第一城的原因是？