美國人的“盎格魯撒克遜”身份哪來的？因為在英格蘭，這個詞完全是歷史背景，并不代表特定族群，美國人選擇認同這個特定的歷史群體顯得很奇怪
Where did the American ''Anglo-Saxon'' identity come from? Considering the term in England is entirely historical and not representative of any particular population, its odd that Americans would choose to identify with this particular historical group
譯文簡介
我是個英國人，一直很困惑于一些美國人自認為是盎格魯撒克遜人……他們怎么可能是盎格魯撒克遜人？因為盎格魯-撒克遜人在英國根本就不是一個族群。
正文翻譯
As a brit i've always been confused with some americans identifying as Anglo-Saxon.. How exactly are they Anglo Saxon? considering Anglo Saxons are not really a racial group at all in the UK
我是個英國人，一直很困惑于一些美國人自認為是盎格魯撒克遜人……他們怎么可能是盎格魯撒克遜人？因為盎格魯-撒克遜人在英國根本就不是一個族群。
how can one claim 'anglo saxon' heritage?
怎么會有人聲稱是盎格魯-撒克遜人的傳人？
怎么會有人聲稱是盎格魯-撒克遜人的傳人？
British people are mix of all their invaders
英國人是所有入侵者的混合體。
英國人是所有入侵者的混合體。
Celtic, roman, Germanic, Viking, Norman
來源于凱爾特人、羅馬人、日耳曼人、維京人、諾曼人。
來源于凱爾特人、羅馬人、日耳曼人、維京人、諾曼人。
it seems odd that they would focus on this singular group of Germanic settlers
他們把焦點集中在這一特殊的日耳曼殖民者身上，這似乎很奇怪。
他們把焦點集中在這一特殊的日耳曼殖民者身上，這似乎很奇怪。
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It's used more like a political term. The Victorian historians of England had a hard on for Anglo Saxons. They looked back at pre-Norman England as some ideal political state with elected kings. Then the Normans came along & imposed feudal tyranny. In this telling the Victorians saw the next centuries as a struggle to reassert Anglo Saxon political principles of accountability & elections against Norman tyranny with big events like the Magna Carta as part of this tradition of Anglo Saxon resistance.
This theory was pretty much accepted across the board in England in the Victorian period & so infected the US who looked at their constitution as a follow up to the Magna Carta & so some frxd themselves as following that tradition. There is also a religious aspect, it's usually always referring to a Protestant.
As others have pointed out there is a racial element to it. Probably it was always there in the Victorian England telling but I don't think it's controversial to say some circles in the US it has been used to distinguish between other "white" immigrants that entered the US on mass such as Italians, Irish.
這個詞的使用更偏向于政治術(shù)語。英國維多利亞時代的歷史學家們對盎格魯-撒克遜人情有獨鐘。他們回顧前諾曼時代的英國，認為那是理想的政治狀態(tài)，那時候有民選的國王。然后諾曼人來了，他們強行實施封建暴政。在這一敘事中，維多利亞時代的人將諾曼時代視為斗爭的世紀，用像《大憲章》這樣的大事件作為盎格魯-撒克遜人抵抗的傳統(tǒng)，重申盎格魯-撒克遜人的政治原則和選舉，反對諾曼暴政。
在維多利亞時代的英國，這種理論被廣泛的接受，也感染了美國，因為美國認為他們的憲法是《大憲章》的延續(xù)，所以有些人認為自己遵循了這一傳統(tǒng)。還有宗教方面，通常指的是新教徒。
正如其他人指出的那樣，里面有著種族因素。也許在維多利亞時代的英國，這種因素就一直存在。我認為，美國的某些圈子用它來區(qū)分其他來到美國的“白人”移民如意大利人、愛爾蘭人，這是沒有爭議的。
It's worth noting that this phenomenon was broadly present throughout Europe. As nation-states tried to more sharply define national identity during the 19th century they frequently pulled deep from their history to do so (to an extent of misrepresenting or even fictionalizing it). So the French for instance would more heavily pull on their "Gaelic" heritage and subsequent romanization despite the "Franks" themselves being essentially a more recent splinter from the main Germanic group.
In that context references to an "Anglo-Saxon" heritage was simultaneously a way to differentiate Britain from the mainland and their upper classes Norman heritage as well as reinforce English supremacy amongst their Celtic subjects (Ireland, Scotland, Wales).
有一點值得注意，這種現(xiàn)象廣泛存在于整個歐洲。在19世紀，當民族國家試圖更明確地定義民族身份時，他們經(jīng)常從歷史中挖掘(有時候會歪曲，甚至是虛構(gòu))。以法國人為例，他們傾向于繼承“高盧人”的傳承和隨后的羅馬化，盡管“法蘭克人”基本上是來自日耳曼族群中分離出來的一個分支。
在這種背景下，提及“盎格魯-撒克遜” 傳承，既是將不列顛與歐洲大陸和諾曼人傳承區(qū)分開來的一種方法，也是要鞏固英格蘭在他們的凱爾特臣民(愛爾蘭、蘇格蘭、威爾士)中的優(yōu)勢地位。
What’s funny is that the a lot Victorian nobles in America who idolizes the Anglo-Saxons were probably the descendants of the Normans who subjugated them.
有趣的地方在于，美國許多崇拜盎格魯撒克遜人的維多利亞貴族很可能是征服了他們的諾曼人后代。
And calling yourself ethnically “English” might sound unpatriotic to an American considering the war of independence?
考慮到獨立戰(zhàn)爭，對一個美國人來說，稱自己的種族為“英格蘭人”聽起來可能不愛國？
Fun fact: Irish, Italian and Swedish immigrants to the US weren’t considered white at the time!
有趣的事實：在當時，愛爾蘭、意大利和瑞典移民不被認為是白人!
Nor where the Germans or Slavs/Poles.
還有德國人或斯拉夫人、波蘭人也一樣。
these days it's mostly racists who identify as "Anglo-Saxon." they're low-key saying they're Aryan
如今，認同“盎格魯撒克遜”的大多種族主義者都低調(diào)地說自己是雅利安人。
Which is another misnomered one. Aryans came from the Indian subcontinent, but everyone now thinks of them as blonde Germans.
這是個用詞不當?shù)膯栴}。雅利安人來自印度次大陸，但如今所有人都認為他們是金發(fā)的德國人。
It's not a misnomer the nazis literally believed the aryans of the indian subcontinent were ancient nords.
沒有用詞不當，納粹確實認為印度次大陸的雅利安人是古代的諾德人。
I really don't think thats particularly accurate. W.A.S.P. is a pretty common term, and plenty of people consider themselves Anglo-Saxon just because thats the term they've always heard used to describe the group they belong to, and don't have any racist subtext to using it at all.
我并不認為這些說法是準確的。W.A.S.P.【即White Anglo-Saxon Protestant，白人盎格魯-撒克遜新教徒，原義是指美國的新教上流社會】是一個相當常見的詞，很多人之所以認為自己是盎格魯撒克遜人，是因為他們一直聽到這個詞用被來形容他們所屬的群體，根本沒有任何種族主義的含義。
Anglo-Saxon has been co-opted by the racist and the political right which are ultimately becoming one in the same in the U.S.
盎格魯撒克遜被種族主義者和政治右翼勢力所同化，最終，它們在美國被統(tǒng)一到了一起。
I mean, that's just not true. The fact that many racists identify as Anglo-Saxon isn't the same as most people that identify as Anglo-Saxon being racists.
我認為這種說法不對。許多種族主義者認同盎格魯撒克遜的事實并不代表很多認同盎格魯撒克遜的人就是種族主義者。
Victoria was of the house of Hanover, no ? Angles and Saxons were Germanic tribes. The biggest ethnical group of the USA, correct me if I'm wrong are the germans. Looks like an attempt from those germans to eradicate the Celtic, scandinavian or french heritage of the UK.
維多利亞是漢諾威家族的人，不是嗎？盎格魯人和撒克遜人都屬于日耳曼部落。美國最大的族群是德國人吧，如果我說錯了請糾正我。這看起來像是那些德國人想要消滅凱爾特人、斯堪的納維亞人或法國人在英國的傳承。
In America (at least in my experience) the simple idea of "Anglo Saxon" isn't really what people identify with.
Americans who would claim an identity in that vein tend to draw stronger ties to maybe "English" heritage, but more so they tend to call attention to "original colonial" ties.
But, as the Mcmanus pointed out above, "Protestant" comes into play too, though ironically, actually being Protestant doesn't have much to do with it (you could be Baptist, or non-denominational, or completely non-religious, doesn't matter). What matters is that its just part of the descxtor of that "Original colonist, pilgrim profile."
And thus the term"WASP" (n) or "WASPy" (adj) an arguably derisive or pejorative acronym for "white, Anglo Saxon, Protestant" that is really meant to express that someone/someone's family is the white, with no notable aspect of minority or immigrant flavor to them, and often the term is meant to carry a connotation of some "privileged" status. I.e., they come from "the right kind" of upper middle class suburban family and are treated as such.
在美國，人們并不是真的認同“盎格魯-撒克遜”這個簡單的概念，至少以我的經(jīng)驗來看是這樣。
會主張一種身份的美國人，他們傾向于聯(lián)系到“英格蘭人”傳承，但更傾向于喚起人們對“原始殖民”聯(lián)系的關(guān)注。
但是，正如網(wǎng)友Mcmanus在上面指出的，“新教”也有著影響，盡管具有諷刺意味的是，實際上成為新教徒與它沒有多大關(guān)系（你可以是浸信會的，或者非宗派的，或者完全沒有宗教，都無所謂）。重要的是，它描述了“原始殖民者，朝圣者”的一部分。
因此，“WASP”（名詞）和“WASPy”（形容詞）可以說是“白人、盎格魯撒克遜人、新教徒” 的嘲諷或貶義的首字母縮略，真正的意思是表達某人或某人的家族是白人，沒有明顯的少數(shù)民族外表，而且這個詞通常意味著帶有某種“特權(quán)”地位的內(nèi)涵。也就是說，他們是來自中產(chǎn)階級上層家族，并有著對等的待遇。
I don’t think it has as much to do with actual ethnic heritage as it did with class and racial struggles between established, ethnically English persons in places like Boston and New York during the waves of immigration in the 19th and early 20th centuries. WASP became a pejorative for the image of wealthy, ascot-wearing people who were legacies at Ivy League universities because their families built their wealth in the 1830s and summered in posh places while the lower classes worked in factories.
我認為這與種族傳承沒有太大關(guān)系，而是與19 世紀到 20 世紀早期移民潮中波士頓、紐約等地的老牌英國人之間的階級、種族斗爭有關(guān)。WASP是常春藤盟校出身、打著領(lǐng)結(jié)、富人形象的貶損，因為他們的家族在1830年代積累了財富，在豪華的地方避暑，而下層階級則在工廠里工作。
I've literally never heard anyone self identity as an Anglo-Saxon or as a WASP. It's more something people say about other people than something people say about themselves. At least that's been the case for the past 50 years.
我真的從來沒有聽說過有人自稱為盎格魯-撒克遜人或WASP。這更像是對他人的評價，而不是說自己。至少在過去的50年是這樣的。
Exactly what I was thinking. I've never met anyone who identified this way growing up in a 98% 'white' area. I think this is more often something some people are accused of identifying as, along with those implications.
我也這么覺得。我從來沒有見過在98%白人社區(qū)長大的人會這么自稱。我認為這通常是用來指責別人的。
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I have. In America people just think it means white, but the right kind of white.
Most recent was a dude I worked with, very dark skinned, family was from Mexico but he insisted that he was "Spanish". He referred to himself as "Anglo Saxon" to me a few times.
When I asked him "I thought you were Spanish" he said "Spanish people can be white". Dude looked like a cross between a Pima Indian who spent his days in the sun and a Berber who spent his days in the sun. This is America.
我見過。在美國，人們認為它意味著白人，但是是對應的白人。
最近有個和我一起工作的家伙，皮膚很黑，家庭來自墨西哥，但他堅持說他是“西班牙人”。有幾次，他對我說自己是盎格魯-撒克遜人。
當我問他“我以為你是西班牙人？”時，他說“西班牙人也可以是白人”。這家伙看起來就像一個整天曬太陽的皮馬印第安人和柏柏爾人的結(jié)合體。這就是美國。
I've never seen someone self-identify as ethnically Anglo-Saxon, however I have seen people talk (positively) about Anglo-Saxon heritage, culture, values, and things like that.
我從來沒有見過有人自認為是盎格魯-撒克遜人，但我卻看到人們積極地談論盎格魯-撒克遜的傳承、文化、價值觀之類的東西。
American here: I have never in my 74 years Ever heard anyone refer to themselves as anglo saxon.
我是美國人， 74年來，我從未聽過有人自稱盎格魯撒克遜人。
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You seriously haven't heard the term WASP? That's from your generation!
你真的沒有聽過WASP這個詞？就是你們這代人說出來的！
It was more of a 19th Century/Early 20th Century English thing to talk about "Anglo-Saxons". You can see plenty of references to it in the literature of the time.
It disappeared after WW II when the whole racial superiority thing suddenly got unfashionable.
談論“盎格魯-撒克遜” 更像是19世紀或20世紀早期的英國事物。你可以在當時的文獻中看到很多參考資料。
二戰(zhàn)后，當種族優(yōu)越感變得不流行時，它就消失了。
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French-speakers often use ? Anglo-Saxon ? to mean the English-speaking world in general. They are quite surprised when I explain that it’s a racial term. I remember laughing when I saw Colin Powell (an Afro-American general during the Gulf war) being described as Anglo-Saxon on French TV.
說法語的人經(jīng)常使用“盎格魯撒克遜” 來指代英語世界。當我向他們解釋這是一個種族術(shù)語時，他們很驚訝。我記得，當我在法國電視上看到科林·鮑威爾(海灣戰(zhàn)爭期間的一位非裔美國將軍) 被描述為盎格魯-撒克遜人時，我笑了。
Angles and Saxons were distinct peoples. They invasions you mentioned didn't happen simultaneously, and did not impact each part of Britain equally. Not all modern Britons are a mix of all above, like.
盎格魯人和撒克遜人是完全不同的民族。他們的入侵并不是同時發(fā)生的，也沒有對英國的所有地區(qū)產(chǎn)生同等影響。并不是所有的現(xiàn)代英國人都是這兩個民族的混血。
Yeah that always struck me as a funny two groups to mix. They came at the same time, but were very different. The Saxons were west Germanic, larger in population and more hierarchical, and the Angles were Suebic, more rural, remote, and “Primitive”. They kinda merged later, but you’re right- They’re not the same.
是的，我總覺得這兩個種族混在一起很有趣。他們同時到來，但是區(qū)別很大。撒克遜人是西日耳曼人，人口較多，等級森嚴；而盎格魯人是蘇維比人，更農(nóng)村、偏遠和“原始”。它們后來合并了，但你說得對，他們不一樣。